Am I the only one that cringes at EVERY single trade up scenario ?

[fansinceGWilson]

I'll take that bet. Sure, Belichick will have solid teams that will be competitive, but there is no way he is dominating anything without Brady. This is exactly why I hope Brady leaves via free agency this year. It would be comical watching the Patriots try to win with the likes of the Andy Dalton's or Marcus Mariota's of the world. Oh by the way, the "QB" just beat the "team" in the last Super Bowl.

First, and no offense, the QB didn't beat the team. Just looked up the stats. Mahommes made no tackles, caught no passes, and made no downfield blocks. I know that sounds condescending and I apologize. But we need to keep this in perspective.

Second, this is another of those debates that should not be reduced to either/or. Without checking, I suspect almost all teams in the conference playoffs have a top HC, a top QB, and either a top D and/or top OL. Brady under Gase's team would have won more games, but no chance at a playoff. Conversely, Gase with the '19 Fins wouldn't have won as many games. BB in Cincy or Det would have won more games. Again, this is a combination of factors. That's why it's so hard to win consistently. Top HC *AND top QB *AND* top team.

 

[Kamelion4291]

First, and no offense, the QB didn't beat the team. Just looked up the stats. Mahommes made no tackles, caught no passes, and made no downfield blocks. I know that sounds condescending and I apologize. But we need to keep this in perspective.

Second, this is another of those debates that should not be reduced to either/or. Without checking, I suspect almost all teams in the conference playoffs have a top HC, a top QB, and either a top D and/or top OL. Brady under Gase's team would have won more games, but no chance at a playoff. Conversely, Gase with the '19 Fins wouldn't have won as many games. BB in Cincy or Det would have won more games. Again, this is a combination of factors. That's why it's so hard to win consistently. Top HC *AND top QB *AND* top team.

The top QB is the stable force amongst it all. While it does require all of those things to eventually be so successful that you're the last team standing for the most part, if you have a great QB and your coach sucks, he gets fired real quick and you have the pick of the litter as a replacement. Getting a "top team" is then the same thing with the GM.

 

[RichmondWeb]

I don't want to end up looking stupid like the Bears who traded up for Trubiski. When they could have stayed put and still got Trubiski...... Oh and they could have had Mahomes or Watson. We'll see if Miami's front office has improved in their evaluation skills. Recently, they have done well letting the draft fall to them, which is how most of the good teams draft.

BTW Herbert is not only 6'6" with a strong arm, a good athlete, and a stud college QB... I believe his GPA was 4.1. He could be the best of the bunch. Who knows.

RW

 

[rickd13]

Bet? I never said the word bet. Nor even suggested it. I merely stated my opinion that Belichick is the Patriots' secret sauce.

But if you mean you disagree that Belichick is the secret sauce, and you think Brady is the secret sauce ... yeah, we disagree, which is fine. Brady missed one year to injury, and Belichick had not groomed the career-backup (both in college and the pros) Matt Cassel (I think that was his name .. he is so easily forgotten), and yet he still had double-digit wins and there was a real media impression that the Patriots would stick with Cassel and leave the aging Brady to trade. That was the year the Dolphins won the Division ... with the exact same record as the Patriots. That was a career-backup who rarely got any snaps thrust into the limelight and the Patriots barely had a speed bump. Cassel was a hot name in the FA market ... and he went on to prove he was nothing more than a journeyman QB who happened to look very good under Belichick. Yeah, I think Belichick will continue to dominate without Brady. Heck, the AFC Player of the month for the last month of the regular season was the resurgent Ryan Tannehill ... I can only imagine what Belichick could do with him, and he could be had for a song.

Brady is elite. He is a top shelf QB, without question he will be successful wherever he goes. Any team losing a QB of that stature will be worse off. I'm not saying that will not happen. But, I am saying that there will be very little transition time as the Patriots will be a 10 win team every year without Brady, and in short order (maybe 1.5 seasons) Belichick will replace him and be back to totally dominating the East and the entire AFC.

That New England team with Matt Cassel was coming off an undefeated season. It was probably the best team New England ever had in franchise history.
I just don't believe Belichick is dominating anything without elite QB play. He didn't when he was a head coach in Cleveland and he wasn't doing it in New England until Drew Bledsoe got hurt and Brady stepped in.

 

[NBP81]

I don't want to end up looking stupid like the Bears who traded up for Trubiski. When they could have stayed put and still got Trubiski......

Are you comparing Trubiski as a prospect to Tua as a prospect?

Recently, they have done well letting the draft fall to them, which is how most of the good teams draft.

Yeah letting a non-pass rushing DT fall to them is genius... There's a reason he was falling, mainly the position he plays...

BTW Herbert is not only 6'6" with a strong arm, a good athlete, and a stud college QB... I believe his GPA was 4.1. He could be the best of the bunch. Who knows.

6'6" is not correlated to NFL success, neither is college production and GPA is just irrelevant...

 

[rickd13]

I don't want to end up looking stupid like the Bears who traded up for Trubiski. When they could have stayed put and still got Trubiski...... Oh and they could have had Mahomes or Watson. We'll see if Miami's front office has improved in their evaluation skills. Recently, they have done well letting the draft fall to them, which is how most of the good teams draft.

BTW Herbert is not only 6'6" with a strong arm, a good athlete, and a stud college QB... I believe his GPA was 4.1. He could be the best of the bunch. Who knows.

RW

Letting the draft "come to them" is not what good teams do when it comes to the QB. Two of the guys you mentioned in your post the teams moved up to draft. In the last three drafts 14 QBs were first round picks and 10 of those picks the team moved up to make the selection. Of the four that there was no move up, two of them already had the first pick so there was no need to move up. So out of the last 14 first round QBs selected 12 of them were selected with a move up or with the first overall pick.

 

[Digital]

That New England team with Matt Cassel was coming off an undefeated season. It was probably the best team New England ever had in franchise history.
I just don't believe Belichick is dominating anything without elite QB play. He didn't when he was a head coach in Cleveland and he wasn't doing it in New England until Drew Bledsoe got hurt and Brady stepped in.

He was turning a consistently losing team into a winning team. He was also learning the ropes of how to be a head coach. But if he had a few more years at Cleveland, he would have made them a powerhouse ... it's just that they stole the team in the night, and wanted a total remake in Baltimore. It's a moot point for now. But eventually Brady will retire or possibly go to another team. When that happens, if Belichick stays at New England and coaches longer, I expect we'll have an answer.

Don Shula won with a dominant, strong willed, old school QB (Johnny Unitas), with a dominant RB and a backup QB (Earl Morrall), With a bespeckled good guy QB (Bob Griese), with a two-QB system (Wood-Strock AKA David Woodley the runner and Don Strock the passer), with a young rebel QB (Dan Marino), with defenses that executed well (No Name Defense and the Killer B's), with terrible defenses (most of the Marino years), and in the 30-odd seasons he coached he only had 1 or 2 losing records, and routinely produced double digit wins, won the division, and challenged for the Super Bowl their fair share. He did it after Unitas. He did it after Griese (and when Griese was out most of the Undefeated Season), he did it after Csonka (who left for the ill-fated World Football League or somesuch), he did it with a rookie (Marino), and no matter who the QB was, Don Shula won. After Miami ... nobody was trading for David Woodley or Don Strock. They were not in-demand guys.

Let's be clear, Unitas, Griese and Marino are three HoF caliber QB's. But, Don Shula showed that he could win with other QB's. Belichick won with Matt Cassel. Shula won with Earl Morall. IMHO, Belichick will win post-Brady if he continues to coach for more than a year. Sure, there may be a transition year, but, IMHO, great coaches replicate success even without their HoF QB's ... and as much as I dislike Belicheat ... he is a great coach. Just my $0.02.

Personally, I hope we never find out. I hope Belichick retires at the end of the 2020 season ... though I'm not expecting it.

 

[marino13zach54]

6'6" is not correlated to NFL success, neither is college production and GPA is just irrelevant...

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Who knows.

Tua is far and away the better prospect. There's not even a conversation to be had there. But to pretend we know what any of these guys will become at the next level is pure speculation and only speculation.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." Any of these QBs could be a superstar and none of them. A Tua fan would never concede that there is a chance that Tua might be just good enough but not great and they are certain all the other QBs will be busts. I guess the tank for Tua talk was tattooed on the souls of many and the many can't even fathom another QB being a solid selection.

 

[mwestberry]

I guess the tank for Tua talk was tattooed on the souls of many and the many can't even fathom another QB being a solid selection.

Gonna suck IF those tattoos have to be removed …. ouch on a couple levels

 

[marino13zach54]

He was turning a consistently losing team into a winning team. He was also learning the ropes of how to be a head coach. But if he had a few more years at Cleveland, he would have made them a powerhouse ... it's just that they stole the team in the night, and wanted a total remake in Baltimore. It's a moot point for now. But eventually Brady will retire or possibly go to another team. When that happens, if Belichick stays at New England and coaches longer, I expect we'll have an answer.

Don Shula won with a dominant, strong willed, old school QB (Johnny Unitas), with a dominant RB and a backup QB (Earl Morrall), With a bespeckled good guy QB (Bob Griese), with a two-QB system (Wood-Strock AKA David Woodley the runner and Don Strock the passer), with a young rebel QB (Dan Marino), with defenses that executed well (No Name Defense and the Killer B's), with terrible defenses (most of the Marino years), and in the 30-odd seasons he coached he only had 1 or 2 losing records, and routinely produced double digit wins, won the division, and challenged for the Super Bowl their fair share. He did it after Unitas. He did it after Griese (and when Griese was out most of the Undefeated Season), he did it after Csonka (who left for the ill-fated World Football League or somesuch), he did it with a rookie (Marino), and no matter who the QB was, Don Shula won. After Miami ... nobody was trading for David Woodley or Don Strock. They were not in-demand guys.

Let's be clear, Unitas, Griese and Marino are three HoF caliber QB's. But, Don Shula showed that he could win with other QB's. Belichick won with Matt Cassel. Shula won with Earl Morall. IMHO, Belichick will win post-Brady if he continues to coach for more than a year. Sure, there may be a transition year, but, IMHO, great coaches replicate success even without their HoF QB's ... and as much as I dislike Belicheat ... he is a great coach. Just my $0.02.

Personally, I hope we never find out. I hope Belichick retires at the end of the 2020 season ... though I'm not expecting it.

I doubt he retires especially if Brady leaves town. It would be another opportunity to prove that he can do it with any QB.

Can't forget to give ardent respect for their front office. There were a set of years wherein they seemed to have it all figured out; getting rid of star players a year early, having 2 first round picks year after year, drafting/sigining well.

It sucks to say that the Pats are a very well oiled machine from top to bottom and with a genius (almost gagged)... genius (there it goes again)... genius like Belicheat as the conductor that train is not going to run out of tracks soon. Brady played horribly this season compared to others and they were still the Pats.

It will be fascinating to see what happens if Brady leaves. I have mixed feelings. I've never been the guy to hope Brady gets injured or retires. I want to beat the best to be the best. But it'll be interesting to see how the front office handles the transition and what Belicheat will do with the new starter.

 

[marino13zach54]

Gonna suck IF those tattoos have to be removed …. ouch on a couple levels

I don't want them removed, though. I want to get one. I just want it at 5, not at 2.

And a lot of mocks I've looked at have Tua falling to us. Of course, we can crap on one hand and mock in the other and see which one gets filled first. But it is a possibility.

We'll see whats what come combine. Tua will be attending and the eyes of the NFL world will be glued.

 

[rickd13]

^
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Tua is far and away the better prospect. There's not even a conversation to be had there. But to pretend we know what any of these guys will become at the next level is pure speculation and only speculation.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." Any of these QBs could be a superstar and none of them. A Tua fan would never concede that there is a chance that Tua might be just good enough but not great and they are certain all the other QBs will be busts. I guess the tank for Tua talk was tattooed on the souls of many and the many can't even fathom another QB being a solid selection.

Of course no one knows what any of these prospects will turn out to be but none of the teams are going to have the advantage of hindsight when they have to make a selection in the upcoming draft. All you can do is evaluate what a prospect has done so far and make an educated projection of how it will translate to the NFL and based on that Tua looks like the best bet for many of us and many of the scouts. That's why many of us think that Tua is worth the gamble as compared to the other options.

 

[mwestberry]

All you can do is evaluate what a prospect has done so far and make an educated projection of how it will translate to the NFL and based on that Tua looks like the best bet for many of us and many of the scouts.

So true … are injuries and surgeries included in the educated projection of how they will translate to the NFL? … Just curious

 

[Mach2]

Of course no one knows what any of these prospects will turn out to be but none of the teams are going to have the advantage of hindsight when they have to make a selection in the upcoming draft. All you can do is evaluate what a prospect has done so far and make an educated projection of how it will translate to the NFL and based on that Tua looks like the best bet for many of us and many of the scouts. That's why many of us think that Tua is worth the gamble as compared to the other options.

I don't think many argue that, but it completely ignores the propensity for injury issue.

It's a red flag, that some put more weight on than others.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

The top QB is the stable force amongst it all. While it does require all of those things to eventually be so successful that you're the last team standing for the most part, if you have a great QB and your coach sucks, he gets fired real quick and you have the pick of the litter as a replacement. Getting a "top team" is then the same thing with the GM.

I would only add, by definition, if the HC "sucks," he's not a top HC. The team will not be consistently successful without a top HC