Any Credit to Grier?

[fansinceGWilson]

It's a fair point, franchise QB has different meaning to different folks, is Philip Rivers one for example ? We've proved that someone of Tannehill's ability (who's playing really well at Tenn right now) is not good enough to get this team to be a contender, and therefore not a Franchise QB in my view. To expect that they draft a Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, Brady or Brees may be unrealistic, but I would hope we can at least expect a QB that we can get excited about and has the potential to reached that level. In the league right now, you can probably add Big Ben, Watson, Murray, Allen, Ryan (although his star is fading), Wentz, Goff, Prescott and Rivers as QB's that would probably be consider the franchise guy at the place they are playing. That's almost half of the NFL teams, we should at least expect our FO to be able to find one QB to match that group with all the stock we have.

I agree in general. OTOH, I can make an argument Dalton and Stafford are Franchise QBs. I say shoot for above average. Fin fans haven't sen that in a l-o-o-o-n-g time. No, I'm not saying ONLY above average - just 'above average at a minimum

 

[Mach2]

As long as fans don't make a FINAL decision on the draft before game 1 '20

Oh, you already no there will be poster, regardless of who is picked, that will be up in arms that we passed up this sure fire pro bowler, or that "their guy" was better, etc.

The reality is, aside from the first two rounds (maybe not even two), you really can't fairly judge for a couple years.

Now there are total misses in the first rounds, as well (Dion Jordan), but most scouts thought he was a good prospect, not just the Dolphins.

The fact that they traded up for a "tweener", with a highly questionable character is another matter though.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Oh, you already no there will be poster, regardless of who is picked, that will be up in arms that we passed up this sure fire pro bowler, or that "their guy" was better, etc.

The reality is, aside from the first two rounds (maybe not even two), you really can't fairly judge for a couple years.

Now there are total misses in the first rounds, as well (Dion Jordan), but most scouts thought he was a good prospect, not just the Dolphins.

The fact that they traded up for a "tweener", with a highly questionable character is another matter though.

On teh other end, someone will wait until game 12, find someone who was picked AFTER the Fins' pick who is playing incredibly and complain Miami should have picked THAT guy - as if everyone knew what would happen.

I still give Grier credit for a number of good picks and a number who seem to need a season or two to 'simmer.' He has a lot of misses just like every other GM. That said, no GM goes in to a closet, develops his rankings and makes picks without input from scouts and coaches. No sane person thinks Grier calls up Flo . . . 'dude, I just signed a LB. You'll have to cut somebody.'

 

[Mach2]

I agree in general. OTOH, I can make an argument Dalton and Stafford are Franchise QBs. I say shoot for above average. Fin fans haven't sen that in a l-o-o-o-n-g time. No, I'm not saying ONLY above average - just 'above average at a minimum

Opinions vary, but to me, a "franchise" QB has to be able to take the team on his back, and drag them to victory when going gets tough, and the breaks are against them.

I'm not even sure that it's statistically quantifiable.

Take, in your example, a guy like Stafford. Solid, tough, makes some damn fine throws, has good stats, by all accounts a leader, but can a guy really be "franchise" without consistently leading his team to the playoffs?

 

[Mach2]

On teh other end, someone will wait until game 12, find someone who was picked AFTER the Fins' pick who is playing incredibly and complain Miami should have picked THAT guy - as if everyone knew what would happen.

I still give Grier credit for a number of good picks and a number who seem to need a season or two to 'simmer.' He has a lot of misses just like every other GM. That said, no GM goes in to a closet, develops his rankings and makes picks without input from scouts and coaches. No sane person thinks Grier calls up Flo . . . 'dude, I just signed a LB. You'll have to cut somebody.'

Hindsight is always helpful when predicting the future......wait....what..

 

[Kamelion4291]

Opinions vary, but to me, a "franchise" QB has to be able to take the team on his back, and drag them to victory when going gets tough, and the breaks are against them.

I'm not even sure that it's statistically quantifiable.

Take, in your example, a guy like Stafford. Solid, tough, makes some damn fine throws, has good stats, by all accounts a leader, but can a guy really be "franchise" without consistently leading his team to the playoffs?

I think it's as simple as having a quarterback that is better than the other team's quarterback more often than not. Top 10 is a good place to be because over time that'll, albeit simplistically, get you to a point where you're in the playoff hunt by default as long as the rest of your roster isn't garbage and your coaching staff is competent.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Opinions vary, but to me, a "franchise" QB has to be able to take the team on his back, and drag them to victory when going gets tough, and the breaks are against them.

I'm not even sure that it's statistically quantifiable.

Take, in your example, a guy like Stafford. Solid, tough, makes some damn fine throws, has good stats, by all accounts a leader, but can a guy really be "franchise" without consistently leading his team to the playoffs?

That's the problem - definition. There are FEW QBs who can 'carry' their team and NONE can do it with significant injuries to the supporting cast. Those who can carry the team often are called 'elite.' OTOH, Marino was elite. but doesn't have the playoff wins other 'elite' QBs have. Take Rodgers - only playoff win was with the 2nd best D. Or Ben, with the 1st and 3rd best D. I can argue they AREN'T great since they couldn't get there by 'carrying' the team. EManning, by comparison, got to the SB with the 17th and 25th best D. Did he carry his team? I'm not being argumentative and I agree with what you say. My point is finding a definition is difficult.

To be fair, you said carry the team "to victory" and not to the SB. Even then, doing it consistently is difficult. I'd prefer dropping "franchise" from the lexicon and going with something a little less fuzzy, like 'top 10' or 'gets to the playoffs often.'

This is where I find faulting or praising Grier gets messy. Fans know there is a whole scouting team - alleged to be better this year - and Flo and assistants, all of whom have a say. I understand the guy at the top gets credit/blame, but, realistically, it's a group decision. Throw in it can take 2-3 years for a pick to peak and it gets harder. To me, Grier's hx with picks is around average. That needs to improve in the '20 draft. This is a crucial year

 

[Mach2]

I think it's as simple as having a quarterback that is better than the other team's quarterback more often than not. Top 10 is a good place to be because over time that'll, albeit simplistically, get you to a point where you're in the playoff hunt by default as long as the rest of your roster isn't garbage and your coaching staff is competent.

Fair enough.

So where do you rate a guy like Flacco?

Consistently in the playoffs, a SB win, very solid (not spectacular) numbers, but for most of his career aided by a top defense.

I don't consider him "elite", but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets into the HOF.

 

[Mach2]

That's the problem - definition. There are FEW QBs who can 'carry' their team and NONE can do it with significant injuries to the supporting cast. Those who can carry the team often are called 'elite.' OTOH, Marino was elite. but doesn't have the playoff wins other 'elite' QBs have. Take Rodgers - only playoff win was with the 2nd best D. Or Ben, with the 1st and 3rd best D. I can argue they AREN'T great since they couldn't get there by 'carrying' the team. EManning, by comparison, got to the SB with the 17th and 25th best D. Did he carry his team? I'm not being argumentative and I agree with what you say. My point is finding a definition is difficult.

To be fair, you said carry the team "to victory" and not to the SB. Even then, doing it consistently is difficult. I'd prefer dropping "franchise" from the lexicon and going with something a little less fuzzy, like 'top 10' or 'gets to the playoffs often.'

This is where I find faulting or praising Grier gets messy. Fans know there is a whole scouting team - alleged to be better this year - and Flo and assistants, all of whom have a say. I understand the guy at the top gets credit/blame, but, realistically, it's a group decision. Throw in it can take 2-3 years for a pick to peak and it gets harder. To me, Grier's hx with picks is around average. That needs to improve in the '20 draft. This is a crucial year

Completely agree. No QB can do it alone.

I meant it more situationally, than game in, game out.

I asked about Flacco in a different post, but to me Ben falls into a similar catagory. Above average, tough as nails, not prone to make a lot of mistakes with the game in the balance, but supported by a perennially top supporting cast.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Completely agree. No QB can do it alone.

I meant it more situationally, than game in, game out.

I asked about Flacco in a different post, but to me Ben falls into a similar catagory. Above average, tough as nails, not prone to make a lot of mistakes with the game in the balance, but supported by a perennially top supporting cast.

And a top HC. But, don't forget . . . Ben goes down and many predict a losing season for PITT. In fact, they've won their last 4 with a backup QB. What does that say about Ben 'carrying' his team? Flacco, to me, is overrated. Ravens are 7-2 with a new QB. We can broaden the list. Wentz, Carr, Jimmy G - I seriously doubt any of them could carry Miami, Wash, or Cincy to winning records.

Picking a QB is quite difficult in spite of those who say player X is a lock. May be, but not guaranteed. At a minimum, what I want is a pick that can be defended (no PWs), no glaring weaknesses, good mental quickness, and a high ceiling. That QB and a supporting cast and Miami is a perennial playoff team.

 

[Etuoo33]

This isn't rocket science. Rosen isn't good at football and that's why he's not starting. The quickest way to lose the locker room is to bench the guy who is playing well and winning games for the guy who made this team look like an embarrassment. If you haven't seen enough of Rosen at this point to conclude that he isn't the guy going forward, then that's on you, not Flores.

Really? I'm not sure how anybody could know for sure about Rosen. There's a guy in GB that couldn't beat out the guy in front of him for years, that's pretty good, maybe Rosen need to learn how to read a defense? Just sayin'.

 

[Mach2]

Really? I'm not sure how anybody could know for sure about Rosen. There's a guy in GB that couldn't beat out the guy in front of him for years, that's pretty good, maybe Rosen need to learn how to read a defense? Just sayin'.

There's a big difference in not being able to beat out a legend in GB, and beating out Fitz.

Just sayin.........

 

[EasyRider]

How does the question not make a whole lot of sense? I'm asking if you think Grier deserves any credit for the recent success given the play of some of the players acquired via trade, UDFA, and signings of guys off the street.

If your answer is "no, he doesn't deserve any credit yet, because we are just not far enough along to give him a full evaluation" that's fine. But to say the question doesn't make any sense is claiming that my post/question is not clear.

99% of other posters commented with responses of "yes he does" or "no he doesn't" with explanations behind their opinion. That tells me that most followed the question.

UM, because he hasn’t had one draft that is his own yet. Pretty self explanatory

 

[Finfan83nj]

Nobody, I never even met a jets fan that though butt fumble was ever "franchise"

Lol Sadly I met a few when I was living in NJ for a few years.

 

[Kamelion4291]

Fair enough.

So where do you rate a guy like Flacco?

Consistently in the playoffs, a SB win, very solid (not spectacular) numbers, but for most of his career aided by a top defense.

I don't consider him "elite", but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets into the HOF.

Flacco will get into the HoF by buying a ticket like the rest of us. Outside of a hot 4 game stretch in the playoffs, he's been the definition of mediocre and we should definitely be looking to get someone better than him.