Article absolutely KILLING Chambers | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Article absolutely KILLING Chambers

DPAR and DVOA are misleading numbers, and determine the success of an entire offense better than an individual player. What has changed since everyone here used to complain about the QB? These statistics do no factor the offensive gameplan or the role of the WR in that offense. They measure the "Catch %" for all passes intended for that receiver as opposed to passes that are indeed catchable.

Have you guys seen the rankings according to DPAR? The Saints changed QBs from Aaron Brooks to Drew Brees, they've aquired additional offensive talent in Colston and Bush. In that time, according to this DPAR, Horn went from being the 11th-worst WR in the league to the 10th best. What?

Mushin Muhammad went from top to bottom when he went from the Panthers to the Bears in 2005.

Valiant attempt to grade WRs but I've never liked how they grade them.
 
As our QB's go, so goes CC.....Chambers cannot pass the ball to himself.....I guess nobody saw what Chris did last year, or watch him destroy the Barfolo Bills.
 
dplunk said:
Hagan should definitely get more playing time. When you draft a guy in the 3rd round, you have to see if he can play. And if your 3rd rounder isn't a decent number 2, it probably wasn't a good pick.

Our offense is broken.
 
A star receiver, to me, is a guy that does most everything really well. As a receiver you have to have a diverse enough skill set that you can't be pigeon-holed.

If you're good at going deep you're going to see deep help on you.

The question is, THEN what do you do?

The star receivers, if that happens, they make stuff happen short, with RAC, tackle breaking, finding holes between zones, etc.

Let's say you're good at doing that stuff, finding the zones, getting RAC, etc. So the teams play tight man coverage on you.

Then what?

Star receivers will take advantage of that by going deep, beating the tight man coverage.

Chambers' problem is that he's not multi-dimensional often enough. He can be multi-dimensional, at times. He can catch fire to where he does absolutely everything extremely well. But most of the time he's not...so he can't be a true "star".

But reality is reality. And reality is that he's had Jay Fiedler, Brian Griese, Ray Lucas, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, and Joey Harrington throwing him the ball. Perhaps even worse, he's played with a crappy pass protecting OL since the moment he came into the league, which has induced every offensive coordinator that has been here with the exceptions of Chan Gailey and Scott Linehan, to shorten up the vertical focus of the offense CONSIDERABLY.

Notice his two best years in Miami were under Gailey and Linehan, the two guys who pushed the vertical focus of the Dolphins' passing attack the most since Dan Marino was QB.

Also notice that Chambers' best game of the year came on a day when our offensive coaches decided to push the vertical focus of the passing game the most we have seen literally the entire year.

We paid for that vertical focus with sacks, and interceptions (Harrington too aggressive). But it also put us on the door step of the end zone three times on a day when the defense wasn't giving us great field position. Put us in position to bang 2 additional field goals.

It is clear to me that Chris Chambers not only is capable of having 1,300+ yard seasons, but setting up the offense so that he has them would be the best thing possible for us.
 
Gardenhead said:
The footballoutsiders.com approach to stats is IMO excellent. DVOA looks at the opponent and the down and distance.

For instance, if a player gets a 9 yard run on a 3rd and 18, it is less valuable than a 9 yard run on 1st and 10. DVOA takes that into account. Regular stats don't.

And yet it doesn't factor in the number of broken tackles on said run. So....
 
bakedmatt said:
Our offense is broken.

:lol: Yeah it is. We are 28th in the league in points scored. When you are that bad at scoring points, there is a lot of blame to go around.
 
Roman529 said:
As our QB's go, so goes CC.....Chambers cannot pass the ball to himself.....I guess nobody saw what Chris did last year, or watch him destroy the Barfolo Bills.

Its about productivity. He's done nothing all year.
 
ckparrothead said:
A star receiver, to me, is a guy that does most everything really well. As a receiver you have to have a diverse enough skill set that you can't be pigeon-holed.

If you're good at going deep you're going to see deep help on you.

The question is, THEN what do you do?

The star receivers, if that happens, they make stuff happen short, with RAC, tackle breaking, finding holes between zones, etc.

Let's say you're good at doing that stuff, finding the zones, getting RAC, etc. So the teams play tight man coverage on you.

Then what?

Star receivers will take advantage of that by going deep, beating the tight man coverage.

Chambers' problem is that he's not multi-dimensional often enough. He can be multi-dimensional, at times. He can catch fire to where he does absolutely everything extremely well. But most of the time he's not...so he can't be a true "star".

But reality is reality. And reality is that he's had Jay Fiedler, Brian Griese, Ray Lucas, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, and Joey Harrington throwing him the ball. Perhaps even worse, he's played with a crappy pass protecting OL since the moment he came into the league, which has induced every offensive coordinator that has been here with the exceptions of Chan Gailey and Scott Linehan, to shorten up the vertical focus of the offense CONSIDERABLY.

Notice his two best years in Miami were under Gailey and Linehan, the two guys who pushed the vertical focus of the Dolphins' passing attack the most since Dan Marino was QB.

Also notice that Chambers' best game of the year came on a day when our offensive coaches decided to push the vertical focus of the passing game the most we have seen literally the entire year.

We paid for that vertical focus with sacks, and interceptions (Harrington too aggressive). But it also put us on the door step of the end zone three times on a day when the defense wasn't giving us great field position. Put us in position to bang 2 additional field goals.

It is clear to me that Chris Chambers not only is capable of having 1,300+ yard seasons, but setting up the offense so that he has them would be the best thing possible for us.


Good job, good points. Furthermore, the Jacksonville game demonstrated what has been going on all season long. Chris Chambers has been double-covered in every game.
 
bakedmatt said:
DPAR and DVOA are misleading numbers, and determine the success of an entire offense better than an individual player. What has changed since everyone here used to complain about the QB? These statistics do no factor the offensive gameplan or the role of the WR in that offense. They measure the "Catch %" for all passes intended for that receiver as opposed to passes that are indeed catchable.

Have you guys seen the rankings according to DPAR? The Saints changed QBs from Aaron Brooks to Drew Brees, they've aquired additional offensive talent in Colston and Bush. In that time, according to this DPAR, Horn went from being the 11th-worst WR in the league to the 10th best. What?

Mushin Muhammad went from top to bottom when he went from the Panthers to the Bears in 2005.

Valiant attempt to grade WRs but I've never liked how they grade them.

Fair criticism. But I keep on harping on the same thing: Chambers has not been productive. The DPAR proves it to me.
 
Chambers is just a guy now. The last contract he got from Miami will be the last big one he ever gets.
 
Gardenhead said:
Fair criticism. But I keep on harping on the same thing: Chambers has not been productive. The DPAR proves it to me.

You call the criticism on DPAR fair, yet continue to rely on it to measure Chambers' productivity. What is your defense of the DPAR?
 
Gardenhead said:
Fair criticism. But I keep on harping on the same thing: Chambers has not been productive. The DPAR proves it to me.

If you're satisfied with that, then by all means...
 
Superself said:
Chambers is just a guy now. The last contract he got from Miami will be the last big one he ever gets.

Agreed. Chambers is more of a "tease" than anything else...always offering the promise of something more, but only rarely delivering...
 
jdang307 said:
You call the criticism on DPAR fair, yet continue to rely on it to measure Chambers' productivity. What is your defense of the DPAR?

I'm not saying it is the perfect measuring stick. However, you can't blame everything on the system and the QB. The initial article addresses this. Quality receivers can still excel on crappy teams with crappy QBs.

Chambers has not been able to do that this year.
 
amay said:
Seems like everytime Chambers has big games this season we lose, and when he's not involved we win, wierd stuff

This just may go down as one of the worst posts in history.

Chambers has had ONE good game and that was last wk. We're 5-7... I guess by your logic chambers has had SEVEN good games and because of that we lost. Never in all of my life or is there documented history that supports your claim: a player has a good game and the team loses.

You might bring up players like Kobe Bryant or ALlen Iverson but it depends on your definition of a good game. SUre, they put up alot of points but the games they lose, you can bet that their shot percentage is really low. The missed shots is what cost them the game.

Chambers may have dropped one or two passes at the most but that is hardly the reason why we lost.

But remember, we're 5-7. One player, such as a reciever will not put you into that position. Defensive laps and poor quarterback play can.

Don't think for a minute that i'm a Joey basher, I want all of our players to be succesfull and I feel truthfully bad for them when they have a bad game. Like Joey... I know he feels awful and he puts it all on himself. But what will tell me alot about his charecter if he goes out next game, puts the past behind him and does a much better job. I know he's capable of it, so is any player on our team.

Chambers does not have an attitude problem, he's one of the most unselfesh players on the team. After keeping quiet year after year, wanting to produce, knowing you can... and we're just now hearing him speak up?? Come on.... he's not a problem one bit.

Maybe he's not a number one WR... But right now, he is ours.
 
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