Bad O-lines & Adversity: Ryan Tannehill vs Russell Wilson

[Bob512]

Russell Wilson is playing great and his team is winning! I'm not surprised, Wilson is a good QB and with his supporting cast on both sides of the ball is getting the job done. I'm happy for him.

I'm not interested in the comparisons between RT and Russell Wilson. Wilson is at a much higher level currently so these ridiculous threads constantly with comparisons of the two are mute. The question with RT is what he could become....not what he is now. Here is where I am more optimistic.....

Seattle has EXCELLENT coaching and stability within their organization. We have CHAOS and instability throughout ours. If Wilson was QB of the Fins this year, we would have won a couple of additional games perhaps, but this team would still be going nowhere. I think it is critical we hire and experienced head coach, OC and DC and then get the heck out of the way and allow them to develop a plan without the threat of firing or upheaval. I'm willing to wait and see how Tannehill does in that type of organization. If he can't be successful, then let him go after 2016. If he thrives in a new system and better coaching, then we have our guy. Wishing we had someone else isn't going to solve anything. Fixing this front office and coaching staff and allowing them to develop or jettison players who don't perform will. The model I like to look at is Pittsburgh. They have had 3 head coaches in the last million years and when they have an off year, they all work together to turn it around.

 

[tay0365]

Wilson
3538 yards 29 td's 7 int's
Tannehill
3529 yards 22 td's 11 ints

Not a huge disparity?

Rawls/Lunch
1247 yards 7 tds
Miller
781 yardss 7 tds

Seattles D
4231 yards allowed 248 points allowed
Miami's D
5555 yards allowed 361 points allowed

I admit Tannehill hasn't played great this year but I have a theory that it's due to him pressing as a result of poor performances of the team around him. Even with his poor performance it's not that out of line with the great Russell Wilson. I also have a theory that football is a team sport and that individual achievement is less important than team execution. Seeing how teams are wining with fitzpatrick, cousins, alex smith, and yates/weeden, I think Tannehill is more than enough QB to win in this league provided we surround him with a cohesive team.

Great job in making an obvious point, but the hatred against Tannehill is strong for quite a few here, it will make little difference to them.

 

[phins_4_ever]

With all due respect to awful O-lines, Seattle's is nowhere near as bad as Miami's. Watch the games, don't tell me about the artificial stats. Rusty Wilson dies behind Miami's line within three weeks. Dan Marino in his prime is a stiff today behind that nightmare.

Have you ever thought that some of the sacks are Tannehill's fault. I was watching the game yesterday with a few people and we observed something which has happened a lot over the years. A lot of times your OL is only pushing the opposing player. They are not allowed to grab them when a rusher gets by them. So unless you face them head-on your only option is to keep pushing your opponent. The average QB steps up in the pocket and the OL pushes the player around the QB. Rivers did that several times yesterday. It comes almost completely natural. Tannehill on the other hand stands like a statue. It was very obvious yesterday on several plays when our left side kept pushing the opposing player in a straight line towards Tannehill. If Tannehill would have made a step forward that guy is pushed around him. It really looked bad for our OL. Yet, other QBs, like Rivers, Newton, Palmer, E Manning, make that natural step up which buys them another second or two.

That is the difference between a lot of other QBs and Tannehill - other QBs realize where the weakness is and adjust to it. And when you compare Tannehill to the Carr situation in Houston people are right. Carr didn't have that pocket presence either. We are now in the 4th year about this OL BS. Is our OL below average? Absolutely. But by just looking at Tannehill's presence in the pocket and looking at other QBs how the handle similar situations the OL is not the only fault here.

 

[Bob512]

These QB stat comparisons do not equate as Russell Wilson hasnt had as many garbage time stat padding opportunities as Tannehill has. Compare those and it will teller a better story

This is a ridiculous argument. Every QB has what you call garbage time stats and the definition is different to everyone you ask. Either take them out of everybody's or nobody's, but you can't pick and choose.

Based on this logic, Eli's stats yesterday when he was down to the Panthers 35 -14 were all garbage time stats?? He lost the game, so they shouldn't count in his performance analysis? Was he supposed to stop trying when he was down 21 points in the 4th quarter? Did the Panthers pull all their starters and not try to stop him? I'm pretty sure the defense has stats also don't they?

 

[Bob512]

Have you ever thought that some of the sacks are Tannehill's fault. I was watching the game yesterday with a few people and we observed something which has happened a lot over the years. A lot of times your OL is only pushing the opposing player. They are not allowed to grab them when a rusher gets by them. So unless you face them head-on your only option is to keep pushing your opponent. The average QB steps up in the pocket and the OL pushes the player around the QB. Rivers did that several times yesterday. It comes almost completely natural. Tannehill on the other hand stands like a statue. It was very obvious yesterday on several plays when our left side kept pushing the opposing player in a straight line towards Tannehill. If Tannehill would have made a step forward that guy is pushed around him. It really looked bad for our OL. Yet, other QBs, like Rivers, Newton, Palmer, E Manning, make that natural step up which buys them another second or two.

That is the difference between a lot of other QBs and Tannehill - other QBs realize where the weakness is and adjust to it. And when you compare Tannehill to the Carr situation in Houston people are right. Carr didn't have that pocket presence either. We are now in the 4th year about this OL BS. Is our OL below average? Absolutely. But by just looking at Tannehill's presence in the pocket and looking at other QBs how the handle similar situations the OL is not the only fault here.

I think it is fair to say a number of these sacks are on RT. I would like to see more recognition or reaction from him on these, but he really seems to struggle with those "A" gap blitzes. We are seeing more and more of them from teams we play.

But I also think it is fair that our line is porous and yesterday, there were defenders in our backfield fairly often and fairly early. This was also the case on a lot of running plays as they Chargers seemed to know when our running plays were being called and their run blitzes were very effective.

I don't know how you measure this, but RT has to have better recognition, the receivers have to run their hot routes and the line has to block better. It is on all 3 aspects.

 

[BlueFin]

Now your going to be labeled as a troll. From the THill lovers. Even though you are correct.

Its not correct....its opinion.

No one can definitively state what Russell Wilson would do playing in this abortion of an organization....after 4 years of getting beat up in an awful scheme...my opinion is it wouldn't be pretty.

But those that want to scapegoat Tannehill for all the problems in this now bottomfeeding organization will....and those that can see the big picture realize the problems are rampant on this team.

Do any of you tunnel visioners really think this is a playoff team with Wilson?

We need to fire everybody...bring in the right football man.....and then we can truly evaluate the talent on this team.

 

[morgan and maso]

with all due respect to awful o-lines, seattle's is nowhere near as bad as miami's. Watch the games, don't tell me about the artificial stats. Rusty wilson dies behind miami's line within three weeks. Dan marino in his prime is a stiff today behind that nightmare.

i supported thill the first 3 1/2 seasons but the excuses are not enough anymore. He does not have awareness in the pocket and this is a feel sort of thing. He is an avergae qb. I think we can win with him if we have a strong d and better o line. However, do not compare him to a top 10 qb talent ever!

 

[normaldude]

Seattle has EXCELLENT coaching and stability within their organization.

I like Pete Carroll, but it should be noted that he didn't have much NFL success until Russell Wilson showed up.

- In 1994, as HC of NY Jets, Pete Carroll went 6-10.

- The 1996 Bill Parcells-led Patriots went 11-5, and made it to the Super Bowl. Then Pete Carroll took over, and each year, the team got WORSE. They went 10-6 (1997), then 9-7 (1998), then 8-8 (1999).

- In 2010 & 2011, the Seahawks had Pete Carroll as HC, and Marshawn Lynch as RB. In those two years, they went 7-9. Out of 32 teams, their team passer rating was ranked #29 (in 2010) and #20 (in 2011).

- Then Russell Wilson showed up (2012-2015). Suddenly, Seattle is an elite team, and their passer rating is #1 in the NFL. This despite the fact that they have the worst o-line in the NFL, lost TE Jimmy Graham, lost their primary RBs, down to using practice squad RBs, and throwing to undrafted WRs.

- It should be noted that when Russell Wilson was at Wisconsin, he set the college FBS record for passing efficiency (a record that still stands today).

- http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-rating-player-season.html

All the evidence would show that Russell Wilson is simply a good QB, and his high passer rating isn't because of Pete Carroll or Marshawn Lynch. Whether Russell Wilson is in college at Wisconsin, at Seattle with Marshawn Lynch, or without Marshawn Lynch, he's been an efficient passer.

Russell Wilson has been elite, in multiple environments (college & NFL).

Ryan Tannehill has been mediocre, in multiple environments (college & NFL).

 

[Bob512]

I like Pete Carroll, but it should be noted that he didn't have much NFL success until Russell Wilson showed up.

- In 1994, as HC of NY Jets, Pete Carroll went 6-10.

- The 1996 Bill Parcells-led Patriots went 11-5, and made it to the Super Bowl. Then Pete Carroll took over, and each year, the team got WORSE. They went 10-6 (1997), then 9-7 (1998), then 8-8 (1999).

- In 2010 & 2011, the Seahawks had Pete Carroll as HC, and Marshawn Lynch as RB. In those two years, they went 7-9. Out of 32 teams, their team passer rating was ranked #29 (in 2010) and #20 (in 2011).

- Then Russell Wilson showed up (2012-2015). Suddenly, Seattle is an elite team, and their passer rating is #1 in the NFL. This despite the fact that they have the worst o-line in the NFL, lost TE Jimmy Graham, lost their primary RBs, down to using practice squad RBs, and throwing to undrafted WRs.

- It should be noted that when Russell Wilson was at Wisconsin, he set the college FBS record for passing efficiency (a record that still stands today).

- http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-rating-player-season.html

All the evidence would show that Russell Wilson is simply a good QB, and his high passer rating isn't because of Pete Carroll or Marshawn Lynch.

Or, perhaps Russell Wilson is having success because his coach and front office have provided a good environment to be successful....on all sides of the ball.

Not to take away from Russell Wilson, as I think he is a very good player, but to think he is doing this alone is probably not accurate. Just a thought....

 

[susser2000]

What if I told you that Tannehill has David Carr syndrome? It doesn't matter how good he can be, he will always be terrified of getting hit in the pocket. He had the potential and maybe he still does, let's see what he does next year because we all know he isn't going anywhere.

 

[brumdog44]

Tannehill also doesn't have the quick release of Marino, doesn't run like Barry Sanders, and doesn't tackle like Ray Lewis.

I'm not sure what the point of comparing who isn't elite to someone who is. Not even the biggest homer is going to say that they would prefer Tannehill to Wilson.

 

[Loui F Baby]

Hats off to you my friend, it takes a lot to say something about Tannehill here without getting bashed. For some reason Tannehill needs a pro bowl RB, a pro bowl WR, pro bowl TE and all 5 OL need to be pro bowlers for him to be successful. Tannehill is the first QB in NFL history who need everyone around him to be pro bowlers for him to be great. Get over it, no coach can save him! Did anyone notice his attempt of a hailmary pass that went out of bounce...lol wow no hope. With Tannehill there will never be a need for us to have speedy WRs because he will never connect consistantly with them.

A lot of phans blame Tannehill's struggles on a weak o-line. But it should be noted..

- Seattle has the worst o-line in the NFL (link), which got worse when they traded pro bowl center Max Unger for TE Jimmy Graham (who is now injured, and lost for the season).

- Seattle lost RB Marshawn Lynch and lost backup RB Thomas Rawls. Their starting RB is now journeyman Christine Michael, who was cut 4 days ago from the Redskins practice squad, and then picked up by the Seahawks.

- Russell Wilson is #3 in the NFL for sacks (40).

- Despite being surrounded by disaster, Russell Wilson is #1 in the NFL in passer rating (111.4).

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/04/ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-entering-week-9/

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING&qualified=true

Elite QBs - like Russell Wilson & Tom Brady - are able to overcome weak o-lines & dumpster fires.

Ryan Tannehill needs everything around him to be perfect in order to be successful.

 

[Trucanes99]

It's an interesting point, comparing RT and RW and their respective olines, but here's the thing... its the exception, not the rule. This is not normally how QBs perform behind a terrible oline (referring to Wilson).

To me, its like just like the people who try to make the "solely playoff and SB wins = better qb" argument. And then they scoff at me when I say, "So Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Marino?"

There is more to the equation than just the play of the oline, and don't get me wrong, if I could trade RT for RW straight up, I would do it in a heartbeat, but lets not trick ourselves into thinking "See! player X can shine with a bad oline, why isn't RT shinning?!" It's just too simplistic, and you're comparing two players on completely different levels.

If all things remain the same and you put Brady, Rothlesberger, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, in place of RT then the fins have a better team. No argument there.

But you also have to concede that if you were to give RT better protection (average would be nice), competent coaching, and an above average D, this team would also be better.

 

[DeathStar]

Great post.

If Tannehill was on the Jets, the same homers would be killing him for being average/suck/etc.

 

[Elle Clouds]

Wilson
3538 yards 29 td's 7 int's
Tannehill
3529 yards 22 td's 11 ints

Not a huge disparity?

Rawls/Lunch
1247 yards 7 tds
Miller
781 yardss 7 tds

Seattles D
4231 yards allowed 248 points allowed
Miami's D
5555 yards allowed 361 points allowed

I admit Tannehill hasn't played great this year but I have a theory that it's due to him pressing as a result of poor performances of the team around him. Even with his poor performance it's not that out of line with the great Russell Wilson. I also have a theory that football is a team sport and that individual achievement is less important than team execution. Seeing how teams are wining with fitzpatrick, cousins, alex smith, and yates/weeden, I think Tannehill is more than enough QB to win in this league provided we surround him with a cohesive team.

Comparing two runners to one? Why?

---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

Hats off to you my friend, it takes a lot to say something about Tannehill here without getting bashed. For some reason Tannehill needs a pro bowl RB, a pro bowl WR, pro bowl TE and all 5 OL need to be pro bowlers for him to be successful. Tannehill is the first QB in NFL history who need everyone around him to be pro bowlers for him to be great. Get over it, no coach can save him! Did anyone notice his attempt of a hailmary pass that went out of bounce...lol wow no hope. With Tannehill there will never be a need for us to have speedy WRs because he will never connect consistantly with them.

I laughed at the TV and went and got another beer.