Camp Day 9 | Page 30 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Camp Day 9

Say what you will about Gase- and I've cursed him edlessly- but he had us in the hunt late every year including last year when injuries decimated us. Then again, that may add to your point of if Flores being marginally better can do better with comparable talent.

I think judging the new coaching staff solely off of wins this early is a mistake. You can call it comparable talent if you wish but we are severely lacking in many areas. Throw in new systems, new QBs, etc and...

Wins/losses can also come from a single player sh!tting the bed (Bengals), luck (Raiders), miracles (Pats).

Believe me when I tell you that we will be able to decipher a difference simply with our eyes instead of stats.

Will guys be flying around? Missed tackles? Players assignment confusion? Schemes that confuse and pressure offenses? Not throwing on 3rd and 1 when your RB is falling forward for a yard on almost every attempt? Not running from the shotgun/3 yards back on 3rd and short? Penalties?

There is so much more to look at than wins and it will be overwhelmingly obvious come game day.

For me, wins won't matter. I know that's blasphemy for many but I just want to be in EVERY game. I don't want to get crushed not once. I want to see hard play and smart gameplans whether or not the pendulum swings in our direction.

Here, IMO, is the problem. *IF* Flo is a Gase clone, this will be a bad year. No pass rush, no pass pro, no game plans/adjustments, and all the feel good of this summer will result in . . . nothing. OTOH, *IF* he's actually an NFL HC, there will be fewer penalties, fewer missed assignments, better game plans/adjustments, and a focus on mismatches. Those, regardless of talent, will make the team better. The problem seems to be some refuse to even entertain the idea Flo is any good and some deny the possibility he could be Philbin 2.0.

Actual intelligent fans see signs of encouragement without accepting those signs may not match reality. Those are not mutually exclusive.
 
Yes and there was what? Like 17 OL penalties yesterday in scrimmage...? Every.Single.Coach preaches focus, discipline and doing your job... I mean who the hell wouldnt want that? Having 53 players doing it in game is another story...



That seems to be the popular argument ATM... But...but...but... NE did this and that... I guess I missed the part where Ross traded the Fins to Kraft for the Pats? Even if Flores did magically scheme pass rush for the Pats(who had a bad sack% to begin with), who played 75% of their snaps with a lead, it'll be a much different game when he has to play from behind at least half of defensive snaps....

Wake might not be the player he used to be... But you've got Harris replacing him with his big *** 3 sacks in 2seasons career.

Quinn is another guy with 15 sacks in the last 2 seasons, who's replacing him? Woodward? Come the **** on man...

Edit: Im sorry about the tone of my post, dont take it personally, I sound angry but Im really not...

First off no offense taken at all. This is a good, lively discussion amongst fans.

I hear you about the scrimmage. I just want to 1. See if there’s improvement by Thursday’s game. Gase seldom showed any of this. And 2. Determine if it was roster guys or future service industry guys committing the bulk of these penalties.

I know every coach preaches discipline but the tnt wall is the first instance of holding players instantly accountable that I’ve seen in quite some time. Gase would just complain to the media about his players lack of knowledge and discipline. I never heard about any ways he tried to remedy this. It was wash, rinse, repeat every week and it was sickening. Is Flores going method going to be better??? Who knows. Is he different? Hell yes, and at least there’s a chance.

Flores also has a winning pedigree and a resume of helping mediocre players perform at higher levels. If we run a hybrid 3-4 as rumored the linebackers are supposed to get the sacks, not the ends or nose tackle anyway. Wake and Quinn really aren’t scheme fits if this is the case. So maybe that’s why their losses really don’t really bother me.

I will concede that pass rushing is much easier when your offense gets you a lead most of the time. I sincerely doubt our offense can replicate that. I also have my doubts that any scheme Flores will run can be as bad as Burke. That defense was completely lost as hid some of our talent IMO. We should at least return to the middle of the pack with somebody competent running things.
 
Let me ask you something, do you think Gase is/was a good coach? Do you think he handled personnel decisions well? Did he have his teams prepared and motivated? How about his play calling? what are your thoughts on Matt Burke and his wide 9? Finally, do you believe coaching matters? If Flores is even a marginally better coach then with comparable talent and schedule, there’s no way other than an injury plague we finish with the first pick.
I will answer your question by saying no, I do not believe Gase or his coaching staff were any good, but some experienced players have left this offseason and weren't really replaced or upgraded. Last year's team was fortunate to win as many games as they did. That team had a minus 114 point differential but still managed to win more close games than they really deserved to win.

Let me ask you something now. What teams do you think will be worse than Miami? I know you don't want to believe this but there just aren't that many teams that will be much worse than this team. I can think of maybe four other teams that could be in contention for the top spot in next year's draft. Washington, Cincinnati, Arizona, and the New York Giants, but that's about it. The offensive line, linebacker, and pass rusher all lack talent with few exceptions, and the most important position in all of sports, QB, is occupied by an NFL journeyman and a second year player who flopped as a rookie. Even if Rosen looks like he might pan out I just don't see how this team will score many points. This offensive line looks dreadful on paper and according to camp reports, has really struggled. Hell, they already got a coach fired. All the great coaching in the world will not be able to overcome the obvious lack of talent this team has on the offensive line. So in my opinion, I just see a team that might look well coached but will be totally out manned in most games and will pile up losses.
 
Don't act surprised when the team is 2-14.

I will be surprised … I will be disappointed … I will also be a fan of the team and continue to believe the team is headed in the right direction... regardless of your opinion (we don't have proof yet) of the supposed "lack of talent" we have coaching, game planning and game time adjustments will win us more than 2 games is my opinion …. add to that there is no measurable stat on a players attitude and heart (that right there means desire and focus) ….

Haven't you ever seen an underdog "surprise"?

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That would be the worst case scenario for this franch
Don't act surprised with 8 wins then. It goes both ways.
That would be the worst case scenario for this franchise unless Josh Rosen looks like the second coming of at the very least, Jared Goff.
 
Here, IMO, is the problem. *IF* Flo is a Gase clone, this will be a bad year. No pass rush, no pass pro, no game plans/adjustments, and all the feel good of this summer will result in . . . nothing. OTOH, *IF* he's actually an NFL HC, there will be fewer penalties, fewer missed assignments, better game plans/adjustments, and a focus on mismatches. Those, regardless of talent, will make the team better. The problem seems to be some refuse to even entertain the idea Flo is any good and some deny the possibility he could be Philbin 2.0.

Actual intelligent fans see signs of encouragement without accepting those signs may not match reality. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Passion can overide intelligence. And it may very well be that those whom are overly enthusiastic are smarter than the rest. After all, they are spending this time with joy in their hearts rather than trepidation. I'm all about keeping an even keel.

What I fail to understand is how passionate and intelligent fans alike don't see that the way they operated this offseason estimates a long road, that the moves they made is set up for future success and not remotely a 1 year turnaround. How is that not clear? No big signings. Stockpiling picks. A 5 year contract. All the signs point to this might take a few years.

I've seen even intelligent posters write that a good coach doesn't get you a 2-14 season. I can't, won't agree with that.

Measuring this new regime by wins in its first year is, to me, absolutely ridiculous. But we will have an instant idea of what we are in for when we see the play and playcalling regardless of whether said play and play calling produce victories.
 
I'm not upset about what we supposed lost in the offseason at all.

Always loved Mister Wake but the dude was/is just too old to

include in a rebuild. And let's be honest, he's not close to the

dominant player he was 4-5 years ago.

I still hope the best for him but to pretend his departure somehow

set the team back is nonsense IMO.

Point of "rebuilding" is also allowing the opportunity for young dudes to

emerge/develop and (hopefully) make an impact.

I still believe this roster has more talent on it than some recognize.

Maybe we're not loaded with top shelf impact players but I fully

expect us to compete.

BNF
 
I will answer your question by saying no, I do not believe Gase or his coaching staff were any good, but some experienced players have left this offseason and weren't really replaced or upgraded. Last year's team was fortunate to win as many games as they did. That team had a minus 114 point differential but still managed to win more close games than they really deserved to win.

Let me ask you something now. What teams do you think will be worse than Miami? I know you don't want to believe this but there just aren't that many teams that will be much worse than this team. I can think of maybe four other teams that could be in contention for the top spot in next year's draft. Washington, Cincinnati, Arizona, and the New York Giants, but that's about it. The offensive line, linebacker, and pass rusher all lack talent with few exceptions, and the most important position in all of sports, QB, is occupied by an NFL journeyman and a second year player who flopped as a rookie. Even if Rosen looks like he might pan out I just don't see how this team will score many points. This offensive line looks dreadful on paper and according to camp reports, has really struggled. Hell, they already got a coach fired. All the great coaching in the world will not be able to overcome the obvious lack of talent this team has on the offensive line. So in my opinion, I just see a team that might look well coached but will be totally out manned in most games and will pile up losses.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree when it come to win/loss record. Time will tell which of us is right. I agree that we won some games we shouldn’t have last year but we also gave a couple games away. However that’s the nfl these days. I still have us winning at least 6 games This season. I’ve stated my reasons for this in earlier posts but a summary is better coaching/scheme, similar schedule, similar talent.

Who is worse than us? So far I have the bengals, giants, redskins, bucs, cardinals, lions, Titians, raiders, Jets all double digits in losses. Add to that any team who loses their starting qb and that a lot of competition for that first pick.
 
That would be the worst case scenario for this franch

That would be the worst case scenario for this franchise unless Josh Rosen looks like the second coming of at the very least, Jared Goff.

That’s why so many fans are predicting 2-14. They’re so afraid of another 500 or so season that they’re not seeing it as the realistic possibility that it is.
 
Let’s play a what if game:

IF the coaches put together an OL that can pass block consistently, what is this offense - even with a journeyman QB?

I look at the WRs and think “thank god brady doesn’t have this group”

I truly believe that if the QB can get a reasonable amount of time, this offensive group could surprise a lot of people.

There is a lot of talent in that group.

As far as the defense - it literally could not be worse than last year. I am so happy the DL is being asked to tie up Blockers instead of shooting gaps. That D was miserable to watch.
 
Aj McCarron also displayed these traits and accuracy.... Straight from the Nick Saban tree.. Where is he now? Not even worth it to mention JaMarcus Russel!!!
Seriously comparing him to AJ McCarron just because they played for the same coach? That sounds pretty asinine.
 
That’s why so many fans are predicting 2-14. They’re so afraid of another 500 or so season that they’re not seeing it as the realistic possibility that it is.

Honestly if Miami goes 8-8 with Journeymen at important positions then either A) Flo is as lucky as Gase with close games or B) Josh Rosen thrives under this system and that's an absolute ****ing win.

I don't want Miami to suck, I truly don't but the quickest way to get away from being a **** team is with a high end qb.
 
I wasn't comparing Tua to AJ. You didn't get my argument but I will not argue...
 
Honestly if Miami goes 8-8 with Journeymen at important positions then either A) Flo is as lucky as Gase with close games or B) Josh Rosen thrives under this system and that's an absolute ****ing win.

I don't want Miami to suck, I truly don't but the quickest way to get away from being a **** team is with a high end qb.

Or 3 Flores is the real deal and gets the team to reach potential or over achieve.

I agree with you about needing a qb. I’m on record saying every single snap Fitz takes is bad for the Dolphins. I want to leave no doubt when it comes to Rosen after the season. If he even slightly smells of mediocrity then we absolutely trade up even if we have to mortgage the farm. Unfortunately that’s what it’s going to take unless Flores is as bad as Gase/Philbin/Cameron and we have a much bigger problem if that’s the case.
 
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