Choosing From Nelson, James, R. Smith | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Choosing From Nelson, James, R. Smith

Hoops, Am I missing something about James? I thought we had 2 strong S's? I agree we need to build up the middle and need a free desperately. Do you think James is the answer for a free? Does he have the instincts, can he somewhat neutralize the TE position ?


I think he's the best carry coverage option on size at tight end in the class...physical has excellent length ball skills look solid to me can jam and match foot work and hips with tight ends all day. some of it is projection given he hasn't done much of it but body type and skill set wise I think he possesses it...I don't have a problem with him as a 2 deep or cover 2 safety I think his ball skills and instincts are better than reshad or tj with either...I think he's a better single high option than either also although not ideal for it...to me that's where I think im getting the least bang for my buck...there's a little bit of hesitation in some things but half field reads I think he will be fine in and I think he has the burst to put his foot in the ground and drive on routes and balls...seen him do it in man coverage vs true slot wrs no reason that shouldn't carry over to safety ask...

but if im drafting james he's a scheme wise plan a carry coverage on tight ends and some size wr options...hell he's also manning up slots in certain packages too...I think this pick would impact bobby mccains run in the slot also... make him more a package player which imo is more ideal anyways and limit the need to have Michael Thomas in the 2 deep period

true free safety type probably not...but its not what I'd ask of him either to get the most return for my top 12 pick investment...a welcome chess piece versatility add with a wide range of skill set...
 
Are you referring to Eric Ebron? They picked up his 5th year option. Are they planning on rescinding it? I haven't heard.


im real worried miamis gonna take on a bad contract at tight end so they can say they have a "starter" going into the draft...

if it's me I'd probably just roll with gray and derby and fasano or another in line guy on a one year pact supplemented by a flex draft pick piece. instead of get involved in a bad contracts waiting to happen tight end free agent crop...if we pay $6 mil per for some scrub oh boy
 
im real worried miamis gonna take on a bad contract at tight end so they can say they have a "starter" going into the draft...

if it's me I'd probably just roll with gray and derby and fasano or another in line guy on a one year pact supplemented by a flex draft pick piece. instead of get involved in a bad contracts waiting to happen tight end free agent crop...if we pay $6 mil per for some scrub oh boy

I sure hope not. None of the current FA TEs are worth a big contract IMO. If they sign anyone I hope it is someone like Sims to a contract between 2 and 3 mil per year. If they can't sign anyone to a "reasonable" contract then, like you said, I hope they just stick with what they currently have and draft someone.
 
I think he's the best carry coverage option on size at tight end in the class...physical has excellent length ball skills look solid to me can jam and match foot work and hips with tight ends all day. some of it is projection given he hasn't done much of it but body type and skill set wise I think he possesses it...I don't have a problem with him as a 2 deep or cover 2 safety I think his ball skills and instincts are better than reshad or tj with either...I think he's a better single high option than either also although not ideal for it...to me that's where I think im getting the least bang for my buck...there's a little bit of hesitation in some things but half field reads I think he will be fine in and I think he has the burst to put his foot in the ground and drive on routes and balls...seen him do it in man coverage vs true slot wrs no reason that shouldn't carry over to safety ask...

but if im drafting james he's a scheme wise plan a carry coverage on tight ends and some size wr options...hell he's also manning up slots in certain packages too...I think this pick would impact bobby mccains run in the slot also... make him more a package player which imo is more ideal anyways and limit the need to have Michael Thomas in the 2 deep period

true free safety type probably not...but its not what I'd ask of him either to get the most return for my top 12 pick investment...a welcome chess piece versatility add with a wide range of skill set...

I like James as much as anyone, but between Smith and James who is going to see the field more? Excuse my ignorance here as I am just speculating, but if I understand correctly, we would most likely use James if we were playing a 4-2-5, right? It would be his 1st year and we have Jones and McDonald. As for Smith, we could use him in 4-3-4 base, and then a 4-2-5 with McMillian as the other LB, and McCain coming on as the 5th DB. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on what you think would work better for us. I like them both, and Nelson for that matter because I can see the advantages they all can bring. Thanks in advance for the thoughts.
 
Thanks, Hoops. My initial reaction was, I like this as a pick. Helps solidify the middle of the field. With many teams going with a 3 safety pkg in the mix, we could have TJ play LB hybrid to get more speed on the field, and McCain off an iso with the TE. My feelings would not be hurt with Smith either, picking a G that high might cause TV damage though...
 
Teams play an increasingly smaller percentage of 4-3 base each year. When faced with 11personal, 3 WR and 1TE, we are playing McCain and sitting a LB. The 2 LBs have to be able to carry coverage on TEs and RBs plus stop the run. We are getting murdered there. On a 12 package, 2WR and 2TE, we should play big nickel and replace McCain with a strong safety. Not sure both of our SSs can carry coverage on today’s faster TEs but we are committed there.

For all of this to work we need 2 LBs that can cover RBs/TEs and stop the run. We also need SSs that can cover TEs and a true FS to handle any WRs/TEs that gets past our DBs who will often be in man coverage. In 4-3 base the WILL needs to be able to handle a slot WR like Landry.

With all that in mind I might like a draft of Davenport, Vander Esch, Reid/Edmunds. But I’d also like a good TE and RB! Interior OL too! Fortunately there are always later round FS and RB prospects. I could also settle for a TE that can’t block, like Gesicki, if he is a matchup problem for others.
 
I like James as much as anyone, but between Smith and James who is going to see the field more? Excuse my ignorance here as I am just speculating, but if I understand correctly, we would most likely use James if we were playing a 4-2-5, right? It would be his 1st year and we have Jones and McDonald. As for Smith, we could use him in 4-3-4 base, and then a 4-2-5 with McMillian as the other LB, and McCain coming on as the 5th DB. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on what you think would work better for us. I like them both, and Nelson for that matter because I can see the advantages they all can bring. Thanks in advance for the thoughts.

Nevermind. Stupid question. Please disregard.
 
Nevermind. Stupid question. Please disregard.


It’s not a stupid question. There’s a lot of talk that James is gonna test top 5 worthy. Blow up the combine

In terms of pure bpa I think he’s better than any lb in this class. But as I’ve said all along you have to have a plan to get the full return on the pick and it can’t be plain old strong safety.

But it really depends on what they think of kiko. If they draft Roquan that will tell me Kiko is kicking inside to mike. I think tremaine Edmunds will be the top lb on their board. He still has a lot of upside in terms of recognition and awareness he has the size for the scheme and the poa/fill ask and he gives miami as an add another year to look at Kiko at weak before they have to decide to cut bait or not.

But it also should be said that miami has multiple 2 down strong options in house what we don’t have is multiple nickel weak options. Roquans range and speed would be a welcome addition. If you add him he’s a every down weakside lb. so in terms of finding snaps it’s easy. But the poa play is a weakness same for the size relative to the scheme ask. 6 foot ish and 230 isn’t the prototype for the scheme ask wise at lb not does it in just about any class validate a top 12 pick. he gets washed out at the 2nd level. I can hide that most at weak admittedly though. Allow him to run and chase more separate from the fill assignment ask.

The easier fit in terms of what we have now and kikos money for 2018 would appear to me to be adding tremaine Edmunds as the 2 down strong and nickel mike essentially Lawrence Timmons role in 2017. With much higher level consistency of play expectations and better perimeter range.

What that does is give us Edmunds and Kiko in the nickel as starters with a year to gauge Raekwon’s range and athleticism as a 2 down mike and plan b nickel mike so come 2019 we could move away from Kiko get him off the books and pair Raekwon and Edmunds as the 2 nickel backers.

I refuse to believe that they are paying Kiko $10 mil in 2018 as a going into the season plan a pine rider they are gonna want a return on that money plus I also believe they are higher on kikos play than this board is.

Of course with Kiko you get more playmaking at mike the offset being poa play with him at weak his carry coverage weakness shows up and it limits his box instincts which are above average.

There’s nothing to say come 2019 Edmunds couldn’t show enough to be a nickel weakside option either.

It’s just a matter of scheming coverage on carry stuff vs asking a man to do a lot of it in the hip as a lb. Ie more help from the safeties or drop lbs more carry coverage with less help pressure on the corners unless the sticks allow for it. Miami plays a lot of zone at the lb level by design anyways but the sticks always predicate coverages played.

The thing that always needs to be remembered here is this d won’t stop anything if it doesn’t stop the run. The lb level reads run reacts to pass. The corners and safeties have gap fill assignment accountability.

This d is built to stop the run paramount but secondary get leads and pin ears with the pass rush. The run d will suffer with Kiko kicked inside and Raekwon’s thump not between the tackles. The run d will fare best with Raekwon at mike gobbling up things between the tackles Edmunds at strong providing high level poa and fill and Kiko at weak.

Kiko at mike and Roquan at weak and you are asking for teams to run the ball downhill on you in the nickel. Yeah the range will be elite level but I’m lining up and getting to your 2nd level and washing out your lbs.

Again this all comes down to Kiko way I see it. At $10 mil he’s a plan a something and I bet ya it’s more than just base. No one pays $10 mil for a base backer
 
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I think I understand better as to how we might use our LB's if we draft Smith or Edmunds, thanks! What about James? You said we probably wouldn't want to use him as a straight up strong safety. Would he be on the field with either Jones or McDonald and we would just use him differently than those guys, or would he come in as a big nickel?

Note: This is where my football knowledge is starting show it's limits. LOL!
 
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The FO said they are evaluating EVERYTHING this year. Let's see if they have the balls to do an honest evaluation and make the necessary changes OR if they just turn a blind eye to Kiko in pass coverage as a WLB. Giving a guy snaps just to justify a hefty cap hit is the act of a fool.
 
Kiko Alonso should not be in any discussion relating to any 2018 draft pick.
He is irrelevant to the future of this team and this defense.
Yes, I understand his salary his guaranteed for 2018. Again irrelevant. You do not make a decision based on a mistake. It leads to another poor decision. Kiko should plays STs next season and be sprinkled in rotationally. Raekwon is the MLB. Kiko is the backup MLB.

At #11 & 41, premium picks, you pick the best player to fit your vision for the 2018- 2021 seasons. Kiko is not part of this equation. Again don't bring up the salary, eat the salary and move on. You want to keep him on to save face, I get it Mr T, fine he can be STs captain.

Should be pretty simple- if James and Smith are there, it's a tough call but James is my favorite. Others like Edmunds fine- not my favorite but I get it. Size, youth, upside.
With either pick KIKO is irrelevant.
If you draft Smith- you play Smith WLB and Raekwon MLB, sign a SAM. Maybe the Philly kid.

If you draft - James play him at WLB- S- play him all over field and still sign a SAM.
 
It’s not a stupid question. There’s a lot of talk that James is gonna test top 5 worthy. Blow up the combine

In terms of pure bpa I think he’s better than any lb in this class. But as I’ve said all along you have to have a plan to get the full return on the pick and it can’t be plain old strong safety.

But it really depends on what they think of kiko. If they draft Roquan that will tell me Kiko is kicking inside to mike. I think tremaine Edmunds will be the top lb on their board. He still has a lot of upside in terms of recognition and awareness he has the size for the scheme and the poa/fill ask and he gives miami as an add another year to look at Kiko at weak before they have to decide to cut bait or not.

But it also should be said that miami has multiple 2 down strong options in house what we don’t have is multiple nickel weak options. Roquans range and speed would be a welcome addition. If you add him he’s a every down weakside lb. so in terms of finding snaps it’s easy. But the poa play is a weakness same for the size relative to the scheme ask. 6 foot ish and 230 isn’t the prototype for the scheme ask wise at lb not does it in just about any class validate a top 12 pick. he gets washed out at the 2nd level. I can hide that most at weak admittedly though. Allow him to run and chase more separate from the fill assignment ask.

The easier fit in terms of what we have now and kikos money for 2018 would appear to me to be adding tremaine Edmunds as the 2 down strong and nickel mike essentially Lawrence Timmons role in 2017. With much higher level consistency of play expectations and better perimeter range.

What that does is give us Edmunds and Kiko in the nickel as starters with a year to gauge Raekwon’s range and athleticism as a 2 down mike and plan b nickel mike so come 2019 we could move away from Kiko get him off the books and pair Raekwon and Edmunds as the 2 nickel backers.

I refuse to believe that they are paying Kiko $10 mil in 2018 as a going into the season plan a pine rider they are gonna want a return on that money plus I also believe they are higher on kikos play than this board is.

Of course with Kiko you get more playmaking at mike the offset being poa play with him at weak his carry coverage weakness shows up and it limits his box instincts which are above average.

There’s nothing to say come 2019 Edmunds couldn’t show enough to be a nickel weakside option either.

It’s just a matter of scheming coverage on carry stuff vs asking a man to do a lot of it in the hip as a lb. Ie more help from the safeties or drop lbs more carry coverage with less help pressure on the corners unless the sticks allow for it. Miami plays a lot of zone at the lb level by design anyways but the sticks always predicate coverages played.

The thing that always needs to be remembered here is this d won’t stop anything if it doesn’t stop the run. The lb level reads run reacts to pass. The corners and safeties have gap fill assignment accountability.

This d is built to stop the run paramount but secondary get leads and pin ears with the pass rush. The run d will suffer with Kiko kicked inside and Raekwon’s thump not between the tackles. The run d will fare best with Raekwon at mike gobbling up things between the tackles Edmunds at strong providing high level poa and fill and Kiko at weak.

Kiko at mike and Roquan at weak and you are asking for teams to run the ball downhill on you in the nickel. Yeah the range will be elite level but I’m lining up and getting to your 2nd level and washing out your lbs.

Again this all comes down to Kiko way I see it. At $10 mil he’s a plan a something and I bet ya it’s more than just base. No one pays $10 mil for a base backer

Your defense will fail with Kiko on the field.
He can't play WLB because he can't cover. He can't play MOB because he is too weak and doesn't hold up at POA.
In you analysis Kiko plays 70 snaps, get ready to watch him trailing crosses and wheels by about 5 yards. I've seen this movie before, it was bad, no need for a sequel.
 
Your defense will fail with Kiko on the field.
He can't play WLB because he can't cover. He can't play MOB because he is too weak and doesn't hold up at POA.
In you analysis Kiko plays 70 snaps, get ready to watch him trailing crosses and wheels by about 5 yards. I've seen this movie before, it was bad, no need for a sequel.

I didn't take Hoops response to my question as an endorsement of Kiko, but rather the Dolphins will play him because he is making 10 mil this year. I too, am not a fan of Kiko's play last year, but Hoops was just giving me (us) an idea of what we could expect since Kiko is still on the team. Most of wish things were different, but I think we are stuck with the guy for another year. It wouldn't stop me from adding the best LB we could get though, even if he didn't play as much in the beginning.
 
I didn't take Hoops response to my question as an endorsement of Kiko, but rather the Dolphins will play him because he is making 10 mil this year. I too, am not a fan of Kiko's play last year, but Hoops was just giving me (us) an idea of what we could expect since Kiko is still on the team. Most of wish things were different, but I think we are stuck with the guy for another year. It wouldn't stop me from adding the best LB we could get though, even if he didn't play as much in the beginning.


pretty much. of all the options I think I like signing a strong that can also play in the nickel in free agency ie every down lb and drafting derwin james the most...but more to the kiko thing no one will convince me that miamis already got eyes on moving on from kiko within the next year unless Miami adds 2 lbs this offseason with starting capabilities ie a free agent piece and a draft pick...draft pick being at minimum top 4 rounds...a 3rd or 4th round lb can have eyes on 2019 making a significant impact anything top 50 eyes would be more on 2018

they add a lb in free agency say a nigel bradham (who usually has up years followed by down years coming off an up year no doubt) or a tahir whitehead and I think lb comes off miamis top 12 pick draft add...and it becomes more derwin james (if it's not already) or possibly even gasp a qb...

on a side note if Miami adds that lb in free agency and Denver for instance already has it's qb come the draft I think they'd be a prime trade out candidate...they have shane ray and von miller on the edge don't see them in the davenport top pick market might be in the o lineman one though for a nelson... Miami could offer 11 and 43 to get to 5 maybe another late rounder in 2019 provided Bradley chubb gets by indy at 3...anyways just spit balling...a part of me wonders if james blows up the combine would Miami also make that same 11 and 43 offer to go get him...its not the same value as a every down 43 left side de.
 
I think I understand better as to how we might use our LB's if we draft Smith or Edmunds, thanks! What about James? You said we probably wouldn't want to use him as a straight up strong safety. Would he be on the field with either Jones or McDonald and we would just use him differently than those guys, or would he come in as a big nickel?

Note: This is where my football knowledge is starting show it's limits. LOL!

impact wise if you add derwin I think it eats into bobby mccains run primary with the 2nd nickel off the los lb being secondary

McCain becomes more of a package carry coverage based on the sticks nickel corner. derwin also gives you in addition to safety run some hybrid lb package run...also I think a derwin james add helps you hide kiko or the lb corp as a whole in coverage more
 
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