Cleo should have started after Daunte was yanked. | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Cleo should have started after Daunte was yanked.

I really do not see how Saban could make the decision to use Joey over Cleo. That is blind loyalty IMO. Cleo has out played Joey in every setting.

Saban's best choice was to coach Cleo up as much as possible and let Joey back him up. Cleo opens up the playbook more and is harder to defend. He sees the entire field and makes smart decisions. The guy just keeps getting better and better.

Saban just made another really bad decision.

Hind sight is always 20/20. Its easier to say wow we should have started this guy that played good for 1 quarter this season over a guy that had a few bad games. To say that it is blind loyalty is even more rediculous due to the fact that Saban had no loyalty to JH coming into this season.

Then again, I am going to make the plain and simple point that no coach is going to keep a player on the bench that they feel could get the job done better. We are talking about this guys job here, its not just a passion like we all have its his job. No way does he let a better player sit because he just likes somebody better. To think that is ignorant.

Also don't make it seem like Cleo just tore it up. He didn't. He was nothing even comparison to Romo. Daunte will be the starter next year for the Miami Dolphins, Joey will be his backup.

All we are doing right now is trying to get some trade value for Cleo before we draft our new QB prospect in this years draft.
 
You're exaggerating what I'm saying and Ive stated on posts that it was working so why stop? I agree on that but I think you'll also agree if he played a three game stretch where that was our offensive game plan, by week three we would be completely shut down. Its too easy to defensively scheme against what we played but bottom line is it worked. Due to the fact he still has less than a full game under his belt I would be interested in seeing how he plays against Indy since their outside speed will probably make the rollout ineffective. Its too early for me to make any declarative statements one way or the other just as it is for any other poster but we're all in the same boat where we're trying to extrapolate his potential on the limited amount of playing time we've seen

Yes but 4 rollouts among 18 pass drops does not constitute a "high school offense"

Exaggerating? I don't need to exaggerate. You're the one that already exaggerated plenty by calling it a high school offense and claiming (on false pretenses) that Cleo Lemon doesn't have a grasp of the playbook, can't read a defense to save his life, etc.

I mean honestly, I don't need to exaggerate because you're the one that seems to be prone to hyperbole which doesn't accurately reflect reality. You're talking about a guy that completed 11 passes on 16 attempts, and only 3 of those completions (at most) were off quarterback movement plays. He got sacked on one quarterback movement play because Mularkey called it 4 times where he should have stopped at 3 times.

If you take out the QB movement he still completes 8 of 13 passes, which is 61.5%.

And this deserves to be called a "high school offense"? This performance deserves Lemon the evaluation that he can't read a defense?

I don't know what you're seeing out there, but whatever it is, your stuff on Lemon is becoming mostly hyperbole and very little reality.
 
At the time when daunte was out, saban wanted to put the more experienced QB in. Joey was brought in as a solid backup who had several years of experience as a QB, that's why saban chose him over cleo.

It looks like a bad decision now but early in the season many people wanted to see if Joey could probably do well in another offense.

SOOOO...
DID U GET WHAT U WANTED FROM SANTA SABAN???
IT LOOKED GOOD FOR ABOUT 5 MINUTES...UGHHH,
NOT AGAIN....
 
My point is simply that we need a more complicated offense than the one we ran Monday. It worked so there's no gripe with going with it for that one game but we would get killed if we ran that for an entire season.

Why?? We just need a TEAM of 11 guys who are going to execute the game plan in whatever form it takes.

Throw the ball.
Catch the ball.
Run the ball.
Block.

Maybe that's been our problem all along.
 
Yes but 4 rollouts among 18 pass drops does not constitute a "high school offense"

Exaggerating? I don't need to exaggerate. You're the one that already exaggerated plenty by calling it a high school offense and claiming (on false pretenses) that Cleo Lemon doesn't have a grasp of the playbook, can't read a defense to save his life, etc.

I mean honestly, I don't need to exaggerate because you're the one that seems to be prone to hyperbole which doesn't accurately reflect reality. You're talking about a guy that completed 11 passes on 16 attempts, and only 3 of those completions (at most) were off quarterback movement plays. He got sacked on one quarterback movement play because Mularkey called it 4 times where he should have stopped at 3 times.

If you take out the QB movement he still completes 8 of 13 passes, which is 61.5%.

And this deserves to be called a "high school offense"? This performance deserves Lemon the evaluation that he can't read a defense?

I don't know what you're seeing out there, but whatever it is, your stuff on Lemon is becoming mostly hyperbole and very little reality.

:lol: Ok that was one of the most complicated offensive systems I have ever seen run, my bad. Peyton Manning still has alot to learn. There's a reason he's still stuck at 3rd string after 4 years and it aint his athletic ability. If he's got a grasp of reading defenses and audibling and a solid grasp of the playbook then he'll be our second stringer next year and either Harrington or Culpepper will be let go. If he's allowed to leave then you've gotta question the cerebral part of his game
 
Hind sight is always 20/20. Its easier to say wow we should have started this guy that played good for 1 quarter this season over a guy that had a few bad games. To say that it is blind loyalty is even more rediculous due to the fact that Saban had no loyalty to JH coming into this season.

Then again, I am going to make the plain and simple point that no coach is going to keep a player on the bench that they feel could get the job done better. We are talking about this guys job here, its not just a passion like we all have its his job. No way does he let a better player sit because he just likes somebody better. To think that is ignorant.

Also don't make it seem like Cleo just tore it up. He didn't. He was nothing even comparison to Romo. Daunte will be the starter next year for the Miami Dolphins, Joey will be his backup.

All we are doing right now is trying to get some trade value for Cleo before we draft our new QB prospect in this years draft.

O, great soothsayer...please tell us why we'd be trying to trade Cleo...who's to say CLEO doesn't back up Daunte...?
 
O, great soothsayer...please tell us why we'd be trying to trade Cleo...who's to say CLEO doesn't back up Daunte...?

The better investment is Joey, Cleo is no younger than either Joey or Daunte. Joey has the better talent, there is a reason that Joey has been a starter since he has been in the league and Cleo have not started a game. We are going to have to open up a roster spot for our young 3rd string QB. Sorry to say but I dont see Cleo here. At least you got the "great" part right.
 
:lol: Ok that was one of the most complicated offensive systems I have ever seen run, my bad. Peyton Manning still has alot to learn. There's a reason he's still stuck at 3rd string after 4 years and it aint his athletic ability. If he's got a grasp of reading defenses and audibling and a solid grasp of the playbook then he'll be our second stringer next year and either Harrington or Culpepper will be let go. If he's allowed to leave then you've gotta question the cerebral part of his game

So then your entire pool of evidence is circumstantial.

That's fine. I prefer the evidence that sits right in front of me on the video screen. I prefer the collected and amalgamated evidence represented in accurate statistics. Circumstantial evidence has its place and I use it often, but if you're basing these ridiculous exaggerations such as the Fins running a "high school offense" or Cleo Lemon not being able to read a defense to save his life, based on circumstantial evidence rather than what is right in front of you, then your analysis isn't very valid.

Between the Bills game (where I don't really recall a single rollout) and the Jets game, I saw no significant simplification of the offense. A change in style based on a guy's strengths does not constitute simplification.
 
So then your entire pool of evidence is circumstantial.

That's fine. I prefer the evidence that sits right in front of me on the video screen. I prefer the collected and amalgamated evidence represented in accurate statistics. Circumstantial evidence has its place and I use it often, but if you're basing these ridiculous exaggerations such as the Fins running a "high school offense" or Cleo Lemon not being able to read a defense to save his life, based on circumstantial evidence rather than what is right in front of you, then your analysis isn't very valid.

Between the Bills game (where I don't really recall a single rollout) and the Jets game, I saw no significant simplification of the offense. A change in style based on a guy's strengths does not constitute simplification.

Ok. Lets break it down piece by piece. Would you agree that the Colts game will require a different game plan for Cleo or do you think we'll run the same offense against their cover 2
 
Between the Bills game (where I don't really recall a single rollout) and the Jets game, I saw no significant simplification of the offense. A change in style based on a guy's strengths does not constitute simplification.

Exactly. Saban was also quoted on a few occasions at the beginning of the season that Lemon was drastically improved in his understanding of the offense from the short time he spend on the team the previous year, so any claim he was running a high school offense is ludicrous.

Now if Shane Matthews had to go into the game, then you would've seen a drastically "dumbed-down" offense just because of his unfamiliarity.
 
Ok. Lets break it down piece by piece. Would you agree that the Colts game will require a different game plan for Cleo or do you think we'll run the same offense against their cover 2

Really not very easy to say.

Probably different, because Mularkey pulled his usual "do something that works until it gets you killed" maneuver with the rollouts.

If that's one thing that Mularkey has done consistently all year long, it is exactly that. He's just about the only coordinator I know that will run the ball on first down, second down, third down, first down, AND second down again...five times in a row, just because the first two runs worked for modest gains and you were able to convert a third-and-short running the ball.

He doesn't just call something that works until the other team stops it, he calls it until the other team kills you with it.

He did exactly that with the rollouts. First one was new, unexpected, and gained some yardage. Great. Second one was still successful. With the third one though, they had an OLB rushing the backside to protect against rollouts and Lemon had a guy in his face before he could even turn around. He threw the ball way early in the rollout as a result and still somehow managed to complete it for a short gain.

Most coordinators would look at that and say...ok, they've got a beat on our rollouts. Not Mike Mularkey! He calls it one more time and once again Bryan Thomas rushes the backside lane and this time Lemon doesn't even have time to get rid of the ball...gets sacked.

That's why I refuse to call the rollouts a simplification of the offense. It was Mularkey doing what he's always done. Not to mention, the Broncos have done the most with quarterback movement since John Elway was playing in the game and I just kind of tend to refuse to say that the Broncos run a high school offense.

Anyway, after seeing all that on film, you can damn well expect the Colts to plan for movement out of the quarterback position...and that means you have to figure out what you're going to do if they take it away from you.

Plus, the Colts are built for the outside rush...Freeney & Mathis.

Truth be told considering how the Colts tend to drop their linebackers and safeties deep, then have undisciplined pass rushers run up the field like mad men, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dolphins came out and told Lemon to pull a few two-read-then-run plays on them. Of course that isn't going to do much in terms of getting you to respect the "cerebral nature" of the offensive play calling, but that might be the best thing for winning the game.

Seems obvious the best way to beat the Colts is to run the ball. We've just got to be able to handle their speed...which isn't a given, with our big beefy and slow OL.
 
Then again, I am going to make the plain and simple point that no coach is going to keep a player on the bench that they feel could get the job done better. We are talking about this guys job here, its not just a passion like we all have its his job. No way does he let a better player sit because he just likes somebody better. To think that is ignorant.

Also don't make it seem like Cleo just tore it up. He didn't. He was nothing even comparison to Romo. Daunte will be the starter next year for the Miami Dolphins, Joey will be his backup.

All we are doing right now is trying to get some trade value for Cleo before we draft our new QB prospect in this years draft.

No coach? Saban did it by choosing Joey over Cleo as Parcells did it by choosing Bledsoe over Romo....except Parcells realized the error of his ways and yanked Bledsoe. Look at where Bill is now.

Also in comparison between Joey and Cleo...yes, Cleo has torn it up in any two games they have been in together, Cleo has outplayed Joey every single time.
:rolleyes2
 
That's why I refuse to call the rollouts a simplification of the offense. It was Mularkey doing what he's always done. Not to mention, the Broncos have done the most with quarterback movement since John Elway was playing in the game and I just kind of tend to refuse to say that the Broncos run a high school offense.

Anyway, after seeing all that on film, you can damn well expect the Colts to plan for movement out of the quarterback position...and that means you have to figure out what you're going to do if they take it away from you.

Plus, the Colts are built for the outside rush...Freeney & Mathis.

Truth be told considering how the Colts tend to drop their linebackers and safeties deep, then have undisciplined pass rushers run up the field like mad men, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dolphins came out and told Lemon to pull a few two-read-then-run plays on them. Of course that isn't going to do much in terms of getting you to respect the "cerebral nature" of the offensive play calling, but that might be the best thing for winning the game.

Seems obvious the best way to beat the Colts is to run the ball. We've just got to be able to handle their speed...which isn't a given, with our big beefy and slow OL.

:lol: :lol: Ok I can grant you that the playcalling may not have been due to Cleo since Mularkey is our offensive coordinator. That guy makes analyzing players exceptionally more difficult because of the bad positions he puts them in.

Here's my take on how you attack Indy and the one main thing I'll be looking for from Cleo.

Number one as you pointed out we should run Ronnie down their throats for two reasons. One they cant stop most running offenses and two Ronnie has a shot at 1000 yards.

Off of that we'll have our playaction passes with only an occasional deep play called because the cover 2 basically takes that play away. The rollout, as you've stated will be inherently more difficult to run for the two reasons you stated, Indy's speed and one week of gamefilm.

So that's going to leave Cleo having to look for Mcmichael 10 to 15 yds down the seam which he did well against the Jets and in addition he's going to have to play the short game ala dink and dunk. Its pretty basic stuff but its going to call for alot more variety of pass patterns for Cleo to execute. If he does it well bode well for him going into next season. If he cant do that then I think we know what the problem with his game is and why Saban had him as our 3rd string.

By the way good call on the tuck and run plays. I definitely think he may be able to break a couple fo those.

I'll reiterate that I've liked what Ive seen of the guy so far but I'm not rushing to proclaim him our savior and I need to see more variety from the guy before I feel he would be a good fit as 2nd string. One more game wont put it to bed but it will at least add some more information on what the guy does weell and what he doesnt do well. At the very least we'll all be better informed about his potential
 
And I'll reiterate that it isn't "rushing to proclaim him savior" just to kind of...you know...NOT say stuff like Cleo couldn't read a defense to save his life, doesn't have a grasp on the offense, etc.

I mean there's got to be SOME kind of middle ground between "savior" and "dumb@ss"

When I compare him to Tony Romo, it is a flattering comparison for Cleo but also a pot shot at Romo, whom I do not think is "the next great Dallas QB" that some have proclaimed. He's good. I like him a lot, actually. He deserves the pro bowl, considering the play of all the other QBs in the NFC. But, he's got weaknesses that are going to haunt the boys.

Cleo has some as well. As I mentioned in the analysis...this high 60's and 70% completion stuff with 10 or 11 ypc? That's not something that is sustainable. And, truth be told, 10 or 11 yards per completion is a really myopic vertical focus. With a YPC that low, you need high completion percentages just to maintain respectable offensive efficiency. There are better QBs out there that can reach their equilibriums at about 12, 13, 14, or even 15 yards per completion. When I've criticized Joey in the past it is for his inability to attain enough efficiency with that short of a vertical focus to make it work. I think Lemon can, and has shown it since college...but that doesn't make him as good as a QB that can reach an equilibrium while still stretching the field.

This no interceptions in his last 141 throws business? That's not something that is sustainable by any means. He'll come back down to earth and the landing will be painful.

But, also when you step back and look at it all, you might just realize we have one of the better QBs in the conference.
 
I prefer a mobile QB to Joey

I prefer getting out of the pocket and at worst throwing the ball away to another Joey pick
 
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