Compare PFF to what you saw.... | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Compare PFF to what you saw....

djphinfan said:
Every rep is part of PFF process even if the ball is not coming to your area..

You get beat in coverage bad even though your receiver wasn’t targeted your getting a bad grade for the play
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Then it's a fail from PFF, because X at times tends to allow his receiver to get a step on him, to trap the QB to throwing his way.

Last year X did not get beat, he allowed his receiver a little room to bait the QB, so that the QB would take a shot his way, and if you watched last season how that went for QBs that thought they could beat X, you know the next part was the QB with head down wondering what happened, as he went off the field.
 
superphin said:
So theoretically I could get beat like a drum 3-4 times a game but not have the QB look my way. I could then have the ball thrown my way 4-5 times a game and knock it down or intercept it and consistently allow only 1-2 catches for 15 yards or less a game for the year. Statistically, this would be one of the best CB seasons ever. In this scenario, PFF would give me a low grade for the year based on the bad plays that ultimately had no impact? Interesting.
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Yes, the ratings aren't meant to detail the actual impact. They are meant to detail how a specific player did across every snap of the season. Whether he won or lost the individual match-up each play.

Funny enough, the QBs going against you would have terrible ratings because not only were they throwing at you in good coverage, they weren't looking your way against bad coverage they should have.
 
I'd be lying if I said I don't occasionally read PFF articles and take a look at the fins grades. I usually don't agree with them but I do like that their system should "theoretically" take any personal bias or media-influenced bias out of the occasion. Where I think PFF lacks is that they grade every player regardless of team or scheme the same and in my opinion their method misses out on a couple key areas. I've noticed this just by examining the Dolphins grades and seeing some clear disagreements with how the fan base tends to feel so my examples will focused on fins players.
  • They grade successful deep throws and intermediate throws better than short throws regardless of situation, scheme or pre-snap changes. Grading a well placed long ball higher than a short dump-off obviously makes sense but it also assumes that everything else about those two plays was the same. For example, the play where Tua was backed up close to our own endzone and changed the run play to a quick slant to Devante because he liked the matchup? IMO, that play was the best play Tua had all day but it would have graded as a + 0.5 for a well thrown short pass. The grade completely misses out on the pre-snap read made by Tua and the importance of that specific play on the outcome of the game. Another area they would miss with Tua comes with the fact that one of his greatest strengths is the RPO. That Tua to Parker slant route is going to be a staple all season long and will be one of our best plays s imo but it will always be graded as a well thrown short pass.
  • Since everybody is graded the same, the grades will often seem off for someone who plays a unique way. For example, Howard seems to never have a good coverage grade unless he it comes through turnovers and pass deflections. This is really highlighted in games where he isn't targeted like Week 1. As Dolphins fans, most of us will know that Howard likes to bait the QB and he's damn good at it. He's great at making receivers look like they have some separation and then jumping the route right when it's thrown. If the ball isn't thrown his way, he's going to get a negative coverage grade but if it is and he jumps it or bats it down he will get a positive grade so in a game where Mac Jones completely avoids him, it doesn't surprise me he grades poorly.
  • It doesn't take into account the specific play. Man to man coverage with no help over the top is alot different than man to man coverage knowing you are in cover 2. The Dolphins play a scheme that requires corners to often go 1 on 1 with little to no help and I think it negatively impacts the grades quite a bit. Covering someone 1 on 1 with little to no help is the hardest way to cover someone and someone who has to do it all game long will inevitably end up with more negative plays than someone who only has to do it for a quarter of the game.
 
Alex Thrasher said:
I'd be lying if I said I don't occasionally read PFF articles and take a look at the fins grades. I usually don't agree with them but I do like that their system should "theoretically" take any personal bias or media-influenced bias out of the occasion. Where I think PFF lacks is that they grade every player regardless of team or scheme the same and in my opinion their method misses out on a couple key areas. I've noticed this just by examining the Dolphins grades and seeing some clear disagreements with how the fan base tends to feel so my examples will focused on fins players.
  • They grade successful deep throws and intermediate throws better than short throws regardless of situation, scheme or pre-snap changes. Grading a well placed long ball higher than a short dump-off obviously makes sense but it also assumes that everything else about those two plays was the same. For example, the play where Tua was backed up close to our own endzone and changed the run play to a quick slant to Devante because he liked the matchup? IMO, that play was the best play Tua had all day but it would have graded as a + 0.5 for a well thrown short pass. The grade completely misses out on the pre-snap read made by Tua and the importance of that specific play on the outcome of the game. Another area they would miss with Tua comes with the fact that one of his greatest strengths is the RPO. That Tua to Parker slant route is going to be a staple all season long and will be one of our best plays s imo but it will always be graded as a well thrown short pass.
  • Since everybody is graded the same, the grades will often seem off for someone who plays a unique way. For example, Howard seems to never have a good coverage grade unless he it comes through turnovers and pass deflections. This is really highlighted in games where he isn't targeted like Week 1. As Dolphins fans, most of us will know that Howard likes to bait the QB and he's damn good at it. He's great at making receivers look like they have some separation and then jumping the route right when it's thrown. If the ball isn't thrown his way, he's going to get a negative coverage grade but if it is and he jumps it or bats it down he will get a positive grade so in a game where Mac Jones completely avoids him, it doesn't surprise me he grades poorly.
  • It doesn't take into account the specific play. Man to man coverage with no help over the top is alot different than man to man coverage knowing you are in cover 2. The Dolphins play a scheme that requires corners to often go 1 on 1 with little to no help and I think it negatively impacts the grades quite a bit. Covering someone 1 on 1 with little to no help is the hardest way to cover someone and someone who has to do it all game long will inevitably end up with more negative plays than someone who only has to do it for a quarter of the game.
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These are all valid points, but I think the problem is also on the fans side as well. PFF isn't saying their grades are the end all be all for every player, just an additional resource to gauge players with along with the eye test fans do each week.

I find it more relevant for other teams than my own, because I can sort of peruse their grades if I want to, see "That guy is grading well or poorly this year" and then put additional resources into my own evaluation of a player and the situation to confirm or deny those grades.
 
RobertHorry said:
How does PFF do these ratings when they have no idea what the defense play they are running?
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After the play call has finished ( they have a better understanding of the play design) they go back and watch each individual matchup to see how each player did in their match up.

For ex, if it’s a strait drop back by the Qb then they would grade each lineman on the rep.
 
superphin said:
So theoretically I could get beat like a drum 3-4 times a game but not have the QB look my way. I could then have the ball thrown my way 4-5 times a game and knock it down or intercept it and consistently allow only 1-2 catches for 15 yards or less a game for the year. Statistically, this would be one of the best CB seasons ever. In this scenario, PFF would give me a low grade for the year based on the bad plays that ultimately had no impact? Interesting.
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That’s correct, you’re gonna get graded for every play, if your coverage was bad the grade for that play will be bad regardless of where the ball went.

The grade would vary relative to how bad or how good the rep is..
 
tay0365 said:
Then it's a fail from PFF, because X at times tends to allow his receiver to get a step on him, to trap the QB to throwing his way.

Last year X did not get beat, he allowed his receiver a little room to bait the QB, so that the QB would take a shot his way, and if you watched last season how that went for QBs that thought they could beat X, you know the next part was the QB with head down wondering what happened, as he went off the field.
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I do think the analysts understand your point and take that into consideration
 
djphinfan said:
After the play call has finished ( they have a better understanding of the play design) they go back and watch each individual matchup to see how each player did in their match up.

For ex, if it’s a strait drop back by the Qb then they would grade each lineman on the rep.
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This.

People need to think of it more like coaches watching film.

Does anyone here think Flores, Rex Ryan, Bill B see a defense on tape and just have no idea what anyone was doing, what the call was or who was the weak link?

I'm not saying these guys grading have the minds of those coaches obviously, but you can absolutely watch tape and grade players on it, teams do it every week in a different way.
 
djphinfan said:
After the play call has finished ( they have a better understanding of the play design) they go back and watch each individual matchup to see how each player did in their match up.

For ex, if it’s a strait drop back by the Qb then they would grade each lineman on the rep.
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So your saying these PFF analysts can decipher a cloud coverage mixed with a quarters and a fluctuating d-line with them dropping into zones and delayed blitzing?
 
RobertHorry said:
So your saying these PFF analysts can decipher a cloud coverage mixed with a quarters and a fluctuating d-line with them dropping into zones and delayed blitzing?
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Why wouldn't they be able to? Its not like they have to do it in real time, are trained to, and other humans can do it. Why would that be impossible or even unlikely?
 
GhostArmOfMarino said:
Why wouldn't they be able to? Its not like they have to do it in real time, are trained to, and other humans can do it. Why would that be impossible or even unlikely?
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Because its ridiculous. It's guesswork. Unless they are talking to Flo/Boyer - they don't know what the coverage is 100% unless its a basic c2/c3/c4/man etc.
 
RobertHorry said:
So your saying these PFF analysts can decipher a cloud coverage mixed with a quarters and a fluctuating d-line with them dropping into zones and delayed blitzing?
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I think context is important RH..

I know it is an extensive process to become one of their analyst’s. I was offered a position with them, and schematic questions were part of the process..

I think PFF is the most comprehensive grades out there..jmo

Is it perfect no, because humans have varying degrees of schematics and concept knowledge.

For me personally I prefer player evaluations and projections based on movement skills relative to position, explosive measurables, body type, physical development, competitive nature and instincts.
 
djphinfan said:
I think context is important RH..

I know it is an extensive process to become one of their analyst’s. I was offered a position with them, and schematic questions were part of the process..

I think PFF is the most comprehensive grades out there..jmo

Is it perfect no, because humans have varying degrees of schematics and concept knowledge.

For me personally I prefer player evaluations and projections based on movement skills relative to position, explosive measurables, body type, physical development, competitive nature and instincts.
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Ah ok at least this is first hand knowledge. Did not know that.

Do they pay well? I always wondered for a position like an analyst for them.
 
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