Culture, Arrogance or Softness?? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Culture, Arrogance or Softness??

JTech194

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I was listening to Channing Crowder yesterday on the radio and he was speaking about the dynamics of locker room culture and gave this example..

He says Zach Thomas was the smartest football player he knew and would often know more than the coaches. He says that in meetings there were times when the coach would give his plan on how they were going to defend an offense and Zach would openly challenge or question the plan... for example

Coach says we're going to play a base man to man defense, Zach would raise his hand and say well if we do that, we will get killed because of (and would give his reasons and thoughts behind it).

Channing said that some coaches are perfectly ok with a player doing that and can have those cerebral chess match conversations on the fly right there in front of the entire team defending his position OR adjusting to it based on the input from Zach.

He also said that some coaches can't have that type of open dialogue because they need time to think about it, draw it up and reassess. Those coaches typically get upset when a player does that for obvious reasons as it makes them look like they don't know what they're doing in front of the team.

In my opinion, a coach should welcome that type of input and should be smart\prepared enough to have those open conversations with their team. In the end, the end result would be better for all parties involved. Just as players have to prove to coaches that they are prepared and know what they are doing.... the coaches have to prove to the players that they know what they're doing as well, especially if you want those players to buy into what you're saying.

So with that said... my question this.... lets say the players we let go Ajayi, Drake, Suh, Pouncy etc... were the outspoken types that would hold coaches accountable and would question gameplans and or schemes if they didn't agree....

Do you see that as being negative to team culture? OR do you see that as coaches being arrogant thinking that a player shouldn't question them, OR do you see that as mental softness on the coaches part not having the balls OR on the fly knowledge to have open dialogues with players that way?

He also gave another obvious example of negative impacts on team culture, he said that Joey Porter would turn to the team any time Cam Cameron would speak and mumble under his breath "This guy's and idiot"

Thoughts.
 
I doubt Ajayi was ever the smartest tool in any room. Suh was extremely intelligent beyond football as well but don't know if he was the type to challenge a coach.
 
it can work either way I supposed. Gase is looking for smart players so with him I don't think it's an ego thing. He just got fed up with players that putting in the work to learn the system and got rid of them.

Ozzy rules!!
 
I was listening to Channing Crowder yesterday on the radio and he was speaking about the dynamics of locker room culture and gave this example..

He says Zach Thomas was the smartest football player he knew and would often know more than the coaches. He says that in meetings there were times when the coach would give his plan on how they were going to defend an offense and Zach would openly challenge or question the plan... for example

Coach says we're going to play a base man to man defense, Zach would raise his hand and say well if we do that, we will get killed because of (and would give his reasons and thoughts behind it).

Channing said that some coaches are perfectly ok with a player doing that and can have those cerebral chess match conversations on the fly right there in front of the entire team defending his position OR adjusting to it based on the input from Zach.

He also said that some coaches can't have that type of open dialogue because they need time to think about it, draw it up and reassess. Those coaches typically get upset when a player does that for obvious reasons as it makes them look like they don't know what they're doing in front of the team.

In my opinion, a coach should welcome that type of input and should be smart\prepared enough to have those open conversations with their team. In the end, the end result would be better for all parties involved. Just as players have to prove to coaches that they are prepared and know what they are doing.... the coaches have to prove to the players that they know what they're doing as well, especially if you want those players to buy into what you're saying.

So with that said... my question this.... lets say the players we let go Ajayi, Drake, Suh, Pouncy etc... were the outspoken types that would hold coaches accountable and would question gameplans and or schemes if they didn't agree....

Do you see that as being negative to team culture? OR do you see that as coaches being arrogant thinking that a player shouldn't question them, OR do you see that as mental softness on the coaches part not having the balls OR on the fly knowledge to have open dialogues with players that way?

He also gave another obvious example of negative impacts on team culture, he said that Joey Porter would turn to the team any time Cam Cameron would speak and mumble under his breath "This guy's and idiot"

Thoughts.

Different situations for different players. I think Ajayi and Landry weren't always on script (play-wise) and wanted more touches than the game plan called for.

I think Suh made too much money for too little impact on the finished product (despite playing extremely well).

I think Pouncey really wanted to stay, wanted a multi-year deal, and the team said no due to declining play.

We didn't let go of Drake (thankfully).

My gut tells me that we need more Zach types, to offer valid opinions on game planning etc., and those would be the players this staff would keep and build around.
 
That is 100% charmin soft imo. If you can't handle one of your best cerebral players questioning you than you need to go ahead and find another profession. Any person in a position of leadership should be open to dialogue even if it is infront of other employees. If a coach can't match a conversation on the fly than that team is already screwed as I doubt he'll be able to process field play in a live game and adjust accordingly should there be a need to.
 
Outspoken? Pouncey was sure as hell not outspoken. He was a ****-up on the field, missing blocks and getting penalties. Landry wasn't outspoken, he was dumb, couldn't even line up without the help of other players and decided that he needed to show another player how big his dick was regardless of if it hurt the team. Suh is not an outspoken player either (he seems more of a cap issue and a correction of a past mistake). So where does this "outspoken" player thing comes from. Is it just more made up bullshit that started on the forum that people now buy into?
 
I think the gase personality thing gets kinda overblown

He’s a competitive, passionate guy that has a system he knows in and out and he wants his team to run his system

He took over a team full of guys who were not his players. Idc how much of a talent they are, if they can’t fit your system/can’t learn your system the coach is gonna want to replace their roles w/ guys who can. Especially when a contract is up and they are demanding money

Landry and Ajayi clearly didn’t fit gases system, and on top of that it sounds like Ajayi had issues taking coaching and Landry had issues dedicating himself to the playbook

The whole 2016 season everyone thought gase was a players coach. He let them display emotion on and off the field and he always was standing up for his players

2017 comes around and after half a season of pathetic execution he calls his players out and starts making changes. I see nothing wrong w/ that at all, and most coaches are going to do the same thing (especially when the head coach is the offensive coordinator and calling the plays himself)

Gase needs to get his kind of personnel in there. As outsiders we don’t have a clue what goes on in the locker room. No idea how the coaches preach/react or the players for that matter too. We have no idea what the true “culture” is like but I reckon all these personnel changes are more system related
 
I just don't think that's the question at hand. The guys we let go were "ME" guys. Suh never worked out with the team and did his own thing, Pouncey wasn't worth the money we were paying him (never healthy) and he was a bad example for our young offensive lineman, and Landry was a "Dog" in every aspect... Loved him as a player but he put himself before team at times by getting stupid, selfish penalties that costs us at times. Coaches don't mind players challenging them in regards to scheme, but keep in mind there is a time and a place to do in the correct manner. Common sense will tell you that. If you disagree, talk to the coach about it man to man, don't just talk about it in the locker room.
 
Gase's staff has raved about Pouncey since they've been here, and even went and publicly talked about how much they like him and are insistent that the move was made because they asked him to take a pay cut and he declined. So the Pouncey thing, I think has a lot more to do with health and salary, and nothing to do with his attitude in meeting rooms / friction with coaches. I really hate the Suh move, but I think that was just a salary dump. Keep in mind that one of the few criticisms we heard of Suh while he was here was that he wasn't vocal ENOUGH.

The two cases of players that the team moved on from that involved friction with the coaching staff were Ajayi and Landry. In the case of Ajayi, I really don't give a **** what kind of input he had to offer, because this is a guy who took himself out of a football game because the team was passing the ball during a 2TD 4th quarter comeback and he wasn't getting touches. In the case of Landry, he got called out for running the wrong routes after a game during which you could go back and watch the game and see that he carried routes into coverage while Matt Moore was throwing the ball away from coverage.

I'm not upset that we moved on from any of these players, except for Suh. Suh's a great football player and our run defense is going to suffer next season.
 
I think Gase is a top down coach and he is on top. He believes in his system and will not be questioned or allow it to be questioned. For good or bad - I see it as hardheaded. He definitely did not adjust his system to the abilities his players had. Now let's see if he can find the players that "fit his system". The culture debate is bunk to me. I'm a life long fins fan and season tix holder. Don't get me wrong I want them to win but I don't see it happening with Gase. He has looked so lost during his HC tenure.
 
Outspoken? Pouncey was sure as hell not outspoken. He was a ****-up on the field, missing blocks and getting penalties. Landry wasn't outspoken, he was dumb, couldn't even line up without the help of other players and decided that he needed to show another player how big his dick was regardless of if it hurt the team. Suh is not an outspoken player either (he seems more of a cap issue and a correction of a past mistake). So where does this "outspoken" player thing comes from. Is it just more made up bullshit that started on the forum that people now buy into?

This! Someone doesnt like a move and they make some bullshit up so they can be even more pissed over it.
 
I think Gase is a top down coach and he is on top. He believes in his system and will not be questioned or allow it to be questioned. For good or bad - I see it as hardheaded. He definitely did not adjust his system to the abilities his players had. Now let's see if he can find the players that "fit his system". The culture debate is bunk to me. I'm a life long fins fan and season tix holder. Don't get me wrong I want them to win but I don't see it happening with Gase. He has looked so lost during his HC tenure.

Lost? Maybe last year, but he put it together his first year. Too much crap went wrong last year, it's hard for me to blame anyone in particular. I think we all expected a down year before the season started, yet some still got outraged over it.

I'm not sold on Gase yet, but I'm not going to roast him for a year where everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong.
 
I think Gase is a top down coach and he is on top. He believes in his system and will not be questioned or allow it to be questioned. For good or bad - I see it as hardheaded. He definitely did not adjust his system to the abilities his players had. Now let's see if he can find the players that "fit his system". The culture debate is bunk to me. I'm a life long fins fan and season tix holder. Don't get me wrong I want them to win but I don't see it happening with Gase. He has looked so lost during his HC tenure.

I actually disagree with this. He dumbed down his system a lot because the guys we had couldn't execute it. He finally got fed up when they still couldn't do it and I think he went back to running it the best he could with what we had. Bottom line is he tried to adjust but the players were too dumb for the dumbed down version.

I think:

1. Ajayi - acted like a baby, was given every chance but continued to act like a baby. He's fine in Philly, sure they're the best team in football right now lets see how he is if they go through a tough time and he doesn't like his workload. It will happen.
2. Landry - I like Landry a lot and wanted him to stay but if he wasn't studying the playbook and couldn't be relied on to always do the right thing I can see moving on at 15 million a year.
3. Suh - I love Sus (another jersey down the drain) but for what he was getting paid he can't impact a game as much as you need from that position. For example, I always hated the NE vs Houston, Tom Brady vs JJ Watt hype up model (it's been used a million times). JJ Watt can have 2 sacks, 3 pressures and a batted pass and he individually had a great game. NE probably ran another 60-65 plays and could have won 41-3. So Brady wins but Watt had a great game. The same can be said for Suh eating double teams for 97% of our defensive plays. He may be great at it but the overall impact can be quite small. I also don't think he's considered a team guy or vocal leader like a player of his caliber should be.
4. Pouncey - Shocking to me as they always raved about him. All about money/health. He was practicing full towards the end of the season, many do not realize this. He could bust a hip or there could be a slight uptick in his play due to being 2 years removed from whatever hip treatments he was getting last offseason. I know NO FINHEAVEN POSTER will ever admit this is a possibility, we'll have to wait and see.
 
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