Defensive Scheme and personnel fits | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Defensive Scheme and personnel fits

Eesti

Eesti

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So far we've heard rumors about Vance Joseph running the "4-3 under" as well as the "wide 9". Whatever defense we run will likely be built around Ndamukong Suh. He had great success in Detroit but 90% of the time he played left/strong side DT. He lined up mostly in the B gap between the right guard and right tackle or in the A gap between the center and right guard as a 1 technique depending on the call.

We have the same coaches here from Detroit that ran the wide 9 in Detroit. Typically Suh was lined up as a 1 or 2i tech and not always in the 3 technique role. He also would occasionally line up as a 6 tech and stunt back into the opposite b-gap. This surprised me as I always thought of him as the prototype 3-technique.

He was still pretty good in the same (strong/left side) role in Miami but deficiencies in coaching as well as players next to him were not good enough to make the line better. Every time I noticed him last year he was on the left side of the defense next to Wake or Shelby.

Now if we run the 4-3 under, where does he go? Will he move to the right side as a true 3 technique? I can't imagine they will have him two-gapping at 1 or 5 tech. Wouldn't that be a waste of his best tools? In OTA's he was reported to be on the left side once again. It would seems to me that if we run a true "under" defense, the 3 tech is the most logical spot for him but then we don't have a guy to play 5 tech unless Jordan Phillips plays that role. Then we have ? at the 1 tech? Both (1 & 5) are two-gappers.

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This also puts either Williams or Wake as the Sam which doesn't make sense either way since it doesn't really utilize their talents. Neither one should be playing 5 tech either. Wake is the best option at Leo as he can just get after the passer or disrupt the backfield. Williams will be not be happy if you try to put him at Sam or the 5 and make him two gap.

I'm getting the feeling that when an article quoted Tannenbaum as saying we will run the "4-3 under", it was misquoted from saying we will run the "4-3" UNDER Vance Joseph. ????

It seems to me based on personnel, that we would run a combination from the 4-3 over and wide 9.

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I think running the 4-3 under puts more pressure on the personnel we have at DT. More of them would have to step up in order to run this scheme. Suh can play 3 or 1. Phillips could potentially play 5 or 1 but Chris Jones would have to step into either the 3, 5 or 1. That's counting on two players to step up. The "over" or "wide 9" only requires one player (besides Suh) to step up.

Wake and Williams out wide with Phillips at 2i and Suh at 3 tech. Occasionally switching it up with Jones/ Mitchell.

I think Jordan is a fit in the 4-3 under as the Sam but we have too many other personnel "mis-fits" in this system. otherwise I think we just put all our DE's (Jordan Included) out wide and get after it. This could really help out Jordan especially.

I'm just trying to piece this together ... what do you people think?
 
i think you run the 43 over/wide 9 with suh as the 3 tech and fluctuating Phillips as the 2i and 1 shade with wide 9 edge players in Mario Williams (which I think fits him to a t) and branch/wake

dion Jordan could fit in that wide 9 role also but he's slow as heck off the snap of the ball and tackles will kick out to space vs him rather easily considering how little rush arsenal and polish he has and how little hand use he brings to the table...his best asset as a de is his length frankly...although I will say if he's to play a wide 9 de drop some more weight and get into that 265 range and then maybe you get some of that burst back he lost...wide 9 you don't necessarily need to be the most polished you can usually allow yourself more time in space to get a head of steam etc but if you are slow off the damn ball as Jordan is it's gonna offset a lot of things

I don't really see a 5 tech in the building option at dt...unless you want to miscast Phillips or suh...who imo are more your 1 shade your 1 tech your 2i and your 3 tech fits...our depth dts aren't 5 techs either

no matter what we do we got a TON riding on Jordan Phillips this season...no ifs ands or buts about it he's got to ball out

you could see some Jason jones 5 tech run but it better be very rare or teams will exploit it
 
hooshoops said:
no matter what we do we got a TON riding on Jordan Phillips this season...no ifs ands or buts about it he's got to ball out
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I see this too. If Philips struggles this season then I see the whole Dolphins defense having problems. Mitchell is garbage and there's no one else to plug up the middle. Wish we had made a play for Knighton. Lack of depth at DT I think will be a real issue.
 
BlueUndertow said:
I see this too. If Philips struggles this season then I see the whole Dolphins defense having problems. Mitchell is garbage and there's no one else to plug up the middle. Wish we had made a play for Knighton. Lack of depth at DT I think will be a real issue.
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yep knighton would have been nice insurance for sure...

it's Phillips and kiko on d...how they go we will go
 
I wish I knew what you guys were talking about. What is a LEO and what is its function?
 
Yeah the 5 tech is going to be the problem. Suh is our 3, phillips/Mitchell at 1, and Wake/Williams at Leo. Not really any player we have that is special at 2 gapping, maybe Deondre Coleman stays aboard for this reason alone because is is decent at the POA but that's pushing it.
 
N Suh s/b the 3 technique but have no problem w/ him occasionally at the 1 or 5. Dion should he be reinstated is primarily a SAM and LEO infrequently.

As far as the primary 5 technique, Fede might be the best option.
 
I always assumed our base would be a 43 Over. It allows Mario Williams to be on the opposite side of the line from Suh. If not, teams will just run away from whichever side they are on.

I'm sure we will deviate from our base a lot more than we did last year.

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if fede is in the rotation (which I don't think there's any guarantee of him being active even) I guess we could try and get away with that some as a 5 tech

but he's another one that you better limit the looks there with or problems

suh could play the 5 but it's just not close to being best bang for your buck
 
I guess one could try and pigeonhole Dion Jordan based on a limited and skewed amount of tape but I believe there are other factors at play. Forget the #3 OA pick stuff and think about how many rookie pass rushers come in a tear it up their first year. There was a whole litter of highly touted edge guys in 2014 and none have really made a huge impact. The last ones I can remember (outside of Khalil Mack) are Aldon Smith and Von Miller but then they had coaches who knew how to use them. Does anyone really think the past regime had a clue on what to do with him? The HC did not want him. DJ was forced on him by the GM. It made Joe queazy.

Then as late as the middle of August 2013....

Yesterday, Miami Dolphins rookie defensive end Dion Jordan missed his second straight practice as he continues his recovery from offseason shoulder surgery. After practice, defensive coordinator Kevin Coyle was asked about the chances of Jordan, the third overall pick back in April, earning a starting position on the defense, replying, "At this point, he hasn't gotten the reps that would be necessary to be able to come out there and start at this point.

"We're obviously taking some precaution as we move forward with Dion, not wanting to overload him at this point," Coyle added. "We've got a plan in place that we think will get him ready to participate, at the level that we feel best at, as we begin the season. We'd like to see as much of him as we can, but we're going to be real careful on how we proceed."
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This is what he had as a rookie:

Total Snaps: 339
Defensive Right End: 236 (69.6%)
Defensive Left End: 22 (6.5%)
Linebacker: 79 (23.3%)
Defensive Tackle: 2 (0.6%)

1. He comes in as a rookie who was never really a 4-3 DE. He was a hybrid player (drop end and OLB) who lined up everywhere. He was rushing the passer but was mostly in coverage and even covered slot as a well as outside receivers in college. Now they want him to gain weight and play full time DE. He does and goes from 245 to 275 even though he was fighting through a shoulder injury. So 339 total snaps for the guy. That's enough to gauge this guy who was injured and learning a new position AS A ROOKIE?

2. Sticking to his MO, Ireland drafted a player (Jordan) while he had a shoulder injury. He misses valuable time but eventually gets on the field while not fully recovered. Now you want him to come in a take over for a guy who already has a 16 game head start as well as a year to get into NFL shape (head and body). A guy that would soon turn enough heads to get the biggest off season contract in 2016.

3. In year 3 (2015 off season) they still claim he will still be a DE. They want him to focus on being a pass rusher. Then they decide they really didn't know what they were doing in 2013 and the off season after 2014 and 236 snaps was enough to justify a move to a completely new position, OLB AND BTW, they like OV at DE. So now Jordan has to start dropping weight to play OLB. First though they kind of throw him in their at 275 lbs. I'm sure it's easy to gain 30 lbs and then turn around and drop it in just a few months to get ready for the season.

What does he do? He gets suspended for the first 6 games. That's all on him. I'm not saying he isn't to blame. I'm just saying there is not enough data to say one way or the other WHERE he should play. Is he a hybrid player? Yes. Is he probably a better fit in a 3-4 or 4-3 under? YES.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I happen to believe he still has a very good shot at 4-3 DE. Let him stay at his current 268 lbs, let him get some training by Jim Washburn, let him learn from Cam and Mario and veteran Jason Jones. Let him actually get some time to work on pass rush moves, technique, etc. He never really had that opportunity the first "go-round" at DE. His rookie year he was injured and had 1 seasoned vet on the team who happened to play on the opposite end. Let him learn one spot before you go messing around again. DE is a hot commodity. Much more so than 43 SOLB.

Don't be like Joe. Joe is queazy. Nobody likes Joe.
 
All I hear from coaches and players around OTA's is "Wide 9". Sounds like that may be our primary alignment. No gap control, reading the line....just get in the backfield as stir things up from all 4 linemen.
 
Eesti said:
I guess one could try and pigeonhole Dion Jordan based on a limited and skewed amount of tape but I believe there are other factors at play. Forget the #3 OA pick stuff and think about how many rookie pass rushers come in a tear it up their first year. There was a whole litter of highly touted edge guys in 2014 and none have really made a huge impact. The last ones I can remember (outside of Khalil Mack) are Aldon Smith and Von Miller but then they had coaches who knew how to use them. Does anyone really think the past regime had a clue on what to do with him? The HC did not want him. DJ was forced on him by the GM. It made Joe queazy.

Then as late as the middle of August 2013....



This is what he had as a rookie:

Total Snaps: 339
Defensive Right End: 236 (69.6%)
Defensive Left End: 22 (6.5%)
Linebacker: 79 (23.3%)
Defensive Tackle: 2 (0.6%)

1. He comes in as a rookie who was never really a 4-3 DE. He was a hybrid player (drop end and OLB) who lined up everywhere. He was rushing the passer but was mostly in coverage and even covered slot as a well as outside receivers in college. Now they want him to gain weight and play full time DE. He does and goes from 245 to 275 even though he was fighting through a shoulder injury. So 339 total snaps for the guy. That's enough to gauge this guy who was injured and learning a new position AS A ROOKIE?

2. Sticking to his MO, Ireland drafted a player (Jordan) while he had a shoulder injury. He misses valuable time but eventually gets on the field while not fully recovered. Now you want him to come in a take over for a guy who already has a 16 game head start as well as a year to get into NFL shape (head and body). A guy that would soon turn enough heads to get the biggest off season contract in 2016.

3. In year 3 (2015 off season) they still claim he will still be a DE. They want him to focus on being a pass rusher. Then they decide they really didn't know what they were doing in 2013 and the off season after 2014 and 236 snaps was enough to justify a move to a completely new position, OLB AND BTW, they like OV at DE. So now Jordan has to start dropping weight to play OLB. First though they kind of throw him in their at 275 lbs. I'm sure it's easy to gain 30 lbs and then turn around and drop it in just a few months to get ready for the season.

What does he do? He gets suspended for the first 6 games. That's all on him. I'm not saying he isn't to blame. I'm just saying there is not enough data to say one way or the other WHERE he should play. Is he a hybrid player? Yes. Is he probably a better fit in a 3-4 or 4-3 under? YES.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I happen to believe he still has a very good shot at 4-3 DE. Let him stay at his current 268 lbs, let him get some training by Jim Washburn, let him learn from Cam and Mario and veteran Jason Jones. Let him actually get some time to work on pass rush moves, technique, etc. He never really had that opportunity the first "go-round" at DE. His rookie year he was injured and had 1 seasoned vet on the team who happened to play on the opposite end. Let him learn one spot before you go messing around again. DE is a hot commodity. Much more so than 43 SOLB.

Don't be like Joe. Joe is queazy. Nobody likes Joe.
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what's your explanation for the athlete after the weight gain to 275 which was more derrick Shelby than top 5 pick worthy? weight gain needed to play a every down de at the poa and take on aspect of things...

I ask knowing that to be a wide 9 de he doesn't have to provide the same level poa play and take on ability and therefore can probably carry 265 and still get the job done provided you don't expect too much from him in the run game

cause the 275 lb athlete on the edge was very marginal as a pass rusher...rush arsenal or no rush arsenal he looked more the part of a 2 down run stuffer athletically

I'm thinking your thoughts may be that they asked him to gain weight too quickly and as a result he carried it poorly and now his body has had time to mature to a 270ish number more naturally and carry it well...

I hope jim washburn can fix that get off
 
Yes. 30 lbs is A LOT of weight to gain. There's also no telling how much of it was muscle weight. Sometimes those linemen just eat and eat and eat and if they don't eat the right stuff or at the right time, it's just dead weight. If you don't have the leg strength to carry it you're in trouble. You lose all your explosion/quick twitch. Combine those things with his lack of experience as a 43 DE and the question of "was his shoulder 100%"? Who knows? I just know things are rarely black and white. There's always more to the story. Just trying to be objective and look at other points.

If you are comparing him to a full time player, he has about 3/4 of a full season of snaps, total. Then figure in the loss of snaps in the off season....

Not enough data. What if they gave up on JT after his 3rd year when he had 2.5 sacks? Moved him to 4-3 SLB?
 
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