Did Saban Contradict himself? | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Did Saban Contradict himself?

perhaps it wasn't directed towards actual players / positions but rather what qualities and things he wants from a player (souinds like Bellicheck). DW just kind of grabbed the players he thought could play and then tried to mold them to our system rather then drafting / targeting players that specifically matched our O and D schemes. I don't see much of a contradiction even if referring to an actual player / positional need. If we had 3 solid CBs that were drafted in the last 2 years....we wouldn't look at CB in the first day for sure. That would be seeing how much ketchup you have so why buy more if you're good for another 3+ years. In the end...no contradiction but they both go hand in hand when deciding who to pick.

I agree and have advocated before what Muck said. Draft the BPA and over a few years you'll have a solid young team with enough cap room to target your needs through FA with short-term contracts.
 
I'm telling you, Belichick does not look for the same exact qualities in every player at a certain position nor does he look to spend a certain amount of resources on a certain position every year. This is a guy who drafted Dan Klecko to be a linebacker, and is also looking now at Odell Thurman to be a linebacker. You want to talk about polar opposites? This is also a guy that went from trying to have Lawyer Milloy and Rodney Harrison starting as his safeties, to cutting Milloy and replacing him with Eugene Wilson, also two polar opposites.

JBond what you just described, is IMO, the complete opposite of what Saban is talking about. For years Wannstedt has been drafting the same type of player at the same position. At LB, they grade out guys highly that are speedy even if a bit undersized. At DT they like guys that are huge and beefy and couldn't rush the passer to save their lives. At DE they wanted guys with speed to come off the edge so that we could get adequate passrush without blitzing linebackers, who are generally undersized an ill-suited for blitzing to begin with. At CB we don't want the fastest guys in the world we want guys who are physical and can jam the WR at the line of scrimmage. At safety we liked guys that can cover a lot of ground with foot speed and who may not be the best tacklers inside the box.

What do you have their? Clear, distinct lines for a clear distinct defense. What has our team lacked over the years? The ability to adapt. When you go from needing a turkey, bacon, swiss to needing a steak'n'cheese, and all you've got in the cupboard is turkey, some bacon, and some swiss, then you can't adapt to the situation.

I believe what Saban is talking about is a grading system that does NOT show a bias toward speed, or any one attribute, where in the past we've clearly showed that bias as I've outlined.
 
Very good posts CK, and that's the way I read what Saban was saying. He wants versatile guys in most positions, he doesn't want 3 duplicates of Zach, he wants one zack, one tatum bell, and one, LB who's just had a heart problem for NE, playing the same position and yet can play in and out. His grading system would probably get him one of each, ie, he will look for more than just speed as CK stated. He won't ignore speed, but if another LB is there who isn't as fast but can be an assess because of strength, then he gets that person. But if you keep the formula the same as the Wanny era, you keep getting Zach, too much of the same ketchup.
 
landshark44 said:
The other day saban made an analogy of his approach to scouting players. It was something to the effect of having a list when you go to the supermarket. He made the point that you don't buy more ketchup when you have ketchup, when it is mustard that you really need.


just after that he said that he thinks that it would be a mistake to draft a player based on a team need, and he thinks that he should take the best available player.

Did I misunderstand him? Or did he contradict himself with these two statements?
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The man likes his mustard!
 
Very good posts CK, and that's the way I read what Saban was saying. He wants versatile guys in most positions, he doesn't want 3 duplicates of Zach, he wants one zack, one tatum bell, and one, LB who's just had a heart problem for NE, playing the same position and yet can play in and out. His grading system would probably get him one of each, ie, he will look for more than just speed as CK stated. He won't ignore speed, but if another LB is there who isn't as fast but can be an assess because of strength, then he gets that person. But if you keep the formula the same as the Wanny era, you keep getting Zach, too much of the same ketchup.
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Precisely. You keep drafting Zach over and over again and what happens when you need a Levon Kirkland type dump-truck?

I think this will all mainly be applicable to defense. Though Belichick clearly uses the same principles on offense, Saban may prefer to let Linehan do his own thing there. And plus, it's usually best to have, for instance, one offensive lineman starting and playing the entire game at each OL position. Wide Receivers may be considered a la carte, and runningbacks have always been considered a la carte by various offensive minds (including Linehan), but OL and QBs are certainly not that type, IMO. We've previously shown a clear bias toward fast OL in the past. I think with Houck coming in we'll see that change to stronger OL.
 
landshark44 said:
The other day saban made an analogy of his approach to scouting players. It was something to the effect of having a list when you go to the supermarket. He made the point that you don't buy more ketchup when you have ketchup, when it is mustard that you really need.


just after that he said that he thinks that it would be a mistake to draft a player based on a team need, and he thinks that he should take the best available player.

Did I misunderstand him? Or did he contradict himself with these two statements?
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I could never imagine a time when mustard is needed, hopefully Saban agrees with me and buys more ketchup
 
LOL i came to the conclusion from day 1, Christmas day (remember, the heat beat the lakers, then later on at night St. Nick arrives in the MIA) that if you try to figure out Saban you will only go crazy! he had everybody waiting on his dissision, and everybody was saying that the long wait could'nt possibly be good for us, and that his wife might not want to move again and this and that, then he comes out and say's that the first people he wanted to tell his dissision to were his players, right then and there i said thank you lord for bringing to us a Real coach! and then i said i will not go crazy again and try to figure anything out from this guy, and that is what is happening now as we approach the draft, i think the best thing to do is just sit back and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!
 
ckparrothead said:
That doesn't really explain the contradiction, and I noticed it too. The way Saban explained it, it certainly sounded like need was a factor that is built into the rating system itself. For example, you might rate a RB a "90" based purely on talent, then rate a QB an "89" and if you strictly follow the rating system, even if you have a RB you take the RB over the QB. On the outset, that's what it sounds like.

However, I think he might have been getting at player attributes. Everyone keeps trying to get a beat on who is a "Belichick type" player and who is a "Saban type" player. We know that we could see trends under Wannstedt and Spielman. They preferred smaller, faster type players, with certain common characteristics (one of them being speed). What Saban might be saying is that for different positions, you rate based on different characteristics. Or, he may actually be saying that you rate the same position based on different characteristics, depending on what kinds of characteristics you've already got at that position and at other positions.

For example. Miami consistently graded linebackers higher based on pure foot speed. But, what happens in a situation where you want a defense that has big dump trucks that can pile all over anything that approaches the line of scrimmage? Every time you went to the linebacker well, you kept going for the best linebacker you could find, which was usually a speedster. So, you don't have those role players on your defense. You're stuck with basically one kind of defense.

This still, however, clearly takes need into account in the ratings system, but at least it's not as simple as "Well, I think we need a RB more than a QB at this point, so we're going to take a RB no matter what." Furthermore, I'm not sure it would apply to every position. Saban will probably let Linehan decide much of the offense for himself where it concerns personnel, and if Linehan decides hey, I need speedy backs in my offense at all times, I need speedy WRs in my offense at all times, and I need big mutha effing linemen at all times, Saban may ask him a few pointed questions about certain situations and what would Linehan do to overcome the situation, just to prove it, but if Linehan presents a good argument, I do think you could see a consistent bias one way or the other on offense in certain groups especially the OL, and especially the WRs.
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Jesus! You guys with your overanalyzing!

The players are rated a bunch of diffirent ways. The 2 that interest you are by position and by overall talent. The overall talent could have 3 WR and 2 RB in the top five, the positional one is self explanatory.

What SABAN is SAYING is that if you draft off of the positional lists and get the best (fill in the blank) available at that #2 overall spot and ignore a great (Fill in another blank) just because you think that you have that position figured out that it's usually a mistake.

He's saying if you pick second overall, take the second overall best player in college. Even if he's a cornerback or linebacker or something we've addressed already in free agency.

That's why he'd like to trade Surtain for a secound round pick. The NEED players he wants are all between 2 - 47. He'd love to get 2 shots in there and not just one.

Hell, if Minnesotta would just finally get that Braylon Edwards hard on we've all been waiting for maybe even get both of their one's AND a second rounder for Surtain. Now THAT would REALLY be something!

So I hope I cleared that up.

Go Phins!
 
perezferia said:
Jesus! You guys with your overanalyzing!

The players are rated a bunch of diffirent ways. The 2 that interest you are by position and by overall talent. The overall talent could have 3 WR and 2 RB in the top five, the positional one is self explanatory.

What SABAN is SAYING is that if you draft off of the positional lists and get the best (fill in the blank) available at that #2 overall spot and ignore a great (Fill in another blank) just because you think that you have that position figured out that it's usually a mistake.

He's saying if you pick second overall, take the second overall best player in college. Even if he's a cornerback or linebacker or something we've addressed already in free agency.

That's why he'd like to trade Surtain for a secound round pick. The NEED players he wants are all between 2 - 47. He'd love to get 2 shots in there and not just one.

Hell, if Minnesotta would just finally get that Braylon Edwards hard on we've all been waiting for maybe even get both of their one's AND a second rounder for Surtain. Now THAT would REALLY be something!

So I hope I cleared that up.

Go Phins!
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:yeahthat:
 
Sounds like an absolute contradiction to me

I would like to see the entire set of quotes, including context, before making judgement.

To borrow from Spike Lee, the key is to Do The Right Thing. When I go grocery shopping, I buy only the items on sale. My so called "save" percentage is always 35% or higher on the sales receipt, usually closer to 50%.

Same thing in sports betting. If I can get a basketball team at +2.40 on the money line (win straight up), when no place else has it above +2.00, I automatically take it, even if I think the team will get blown out. The two sharpest guys I've met in this town taught me that more than a decade ago. I was a ****y 20 something kid and I thought that was garbage. I thought I knew so much about talent and matchups that I didn't need to worry about value. I would isolate my best bets and ignore everything else. I wasted several years, while those two guys cleaned up by taking advantage of odds and pointspreads that were out of whack. They built new homes while I struggled with an aging Datsun. Thank goodness I wised up in '95.

We need to take the best player available with every choice, regardless if we end up with 6 WRs and nothing else. You'll be amazed the positive doors that will fling open with an approach like that.
 
Muck said:
The teams that draft BPA usually do a heckuva lot better than the teams that draft for need. That's the way it's supposed to be. Look at how we've drafted in the first round the past decade or so (when we've actually had a pick).

Most rookies cannot be counted on to make major contributions and/or start in their first year. Certainly not at a high level. Free agency is for filling needs, while the draft is for building foundations.
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Exactly. That's why our talent depth has been depleted, for the most part, the past few years.
 
If you have read "Patriot Regeign" you will get a better understanding of how & why the Pats draft the way they do.
With that being said Saban's close association with Belicheck leds me to believe he will use the same concept in signing & drafting players.

They have a blueprint for wach postion and the attributes a player should have for his particular pos.

Its noted in "Patriot Regeign" that Brady is as close to the perfect QB under their blue print.
 
whether you draft for need or supposed BPA its a crap shoot... everyone talks about our drafts of fletcher instead of brees and moore instead of boldin... but both of those was a BPA situation, not need... fletcher was thought of as a mid to late first rounder and thats where we took him though we didn't need a CB at the time with madison and surtain both still relatively young... and moore we had a LB core already in place and actually needed another WR but we took moore thinking he was BPA...

you can get ****ed either way in the draft whether you are picking the supposed BPA or by drafting what you need...
 
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