Dolphins Will Run Both A 4-3 And 3-4 This Year. | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Dolphins Will Run Both A 4-3 And 3-4 This Year.

TG...I sure am going to miss Burke and his wide nine BS! SMFH
 
DolfanISS said:
So not 90% Nickel?
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it will still be mostly nickel and dime. While the 43 vs 34 used to mean the front seven … I think it's being bastardized a bit here. What they really mean is a 3 man front sometimes and a 4 man front other times. Or, as Slimm points out, this is a variation of how we implement the 4th guy, who sometimes will look like a LB and other times look like a DE.

This is very exciting. The Patriots have taken prospects that didn't quite fit into other schemes perfectly and used them effectively with this multiple front approach. It almost reminds me of Bill Walsh, who designed one of the first ball-control short passing systems, called the West Coast Offense after his west coast San Francisco 49'ers (but he initially developed it in Cincinnati to deal with QB Ken Anderson's decreased arm strength). Walsh was looking for offensive linemen who were mobile, but was OK with guys who didn't quite have as much power and size. So, he could get guys who were ideal for his system in the middle rounds, so he traded back, got lots of picks, and took those guys at what was essentially a discount.

The Patriots have gotten guys who have good athletic ability, but maybe not truly elite quickness or maybe not ideal length, so they slipped down the draft boards or were cut. The Patriots recycled a lot of those guys and sifted through them to find a few really good fits. Guys like Kyle Van Noy, who failed elsewhere, but succeeded in the multiple front system because he does a number of things fairly well.

What makes this so encouraging is that it means we should be able to build a competitive defense, and maybe a good defense, relatively quickly. Seeing as how that is Coach Flores' area of concentration, I'm excited to see what he builds. Given that we're tanking for a year, that gives him two drafts and two off-seasons to get his guys in place. We haven't had a strong defense since the Coyle/Nolan years, and many people made it their life's focus to criticize them. Honestly, they were pretty good overall. This system that Flores/Graham want to run probably means that in a few years our defense is going to return to being a perennial top 10 defense … and it will be a welcome return.
 
Danny said:
Well, regardless of the players we'll have, it will help that the offense doesn't kn ow what we're going to do on every snap as it's been the case in the past.
Click to expand...
Well, every offense except New England … because … well … you know … they cheat.
 
What he learned in New England? Multiplicity and unpredictability are key.

That’s why the Dolphins will use a 4-3 and a 3-4 defensive front this year.

“We’re going to do whatever coach Flores wants us to do that week, and what we’re going to try to do is try to teach the guys the concepts of the defense, what the coverage is, what the rush is whether we’re rushing three, four, five, six, doesn’t matter,” Graham said. “How we deploy those guys in different spots and the outside looking in, you guys see it. It’s going to look multiple. It is going to be multiple. Are we talking about 3-4, 4-3? It’s just going to be multiple.


“We’re going to do what we need to do that week and that game,” Graham continued. “We’re going to try to win that situation, whatever we’re trying to do. If it requires all 11 guys to be on their feet, it requires all 11 guys to be on their feet. If it requires all 11 to be down in a three-point stance, it’ll look weird, but we’ll do it, if we think that’s what it takes to win the game.”

Put another way, the Dolphins are going to install their variation of the Patriots’ defense, which Flores ran to perfection in the Super Bowl. New England held the high-flying Rams to three points — the fewest in Super Bowl history — and 260 yards en route to a sixth world championship.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article226331830.html
 
I’m excited to see what this defense will turn into. Sky’s the limit right now, until it isn’t.
 
mrbunglez said:
I’m excited to see what this defense will turn into. Sky’s the limit right now, until it isn’t.
Click to expand...

And that's good news or bad news depending on the reader. Those advocating 'tank' will be unhappy. Those wanting evidence of a good coaching staff? Happy
 
fansinceGWilson said:
And that's good news or bad news depending on the reader. Those advocating 'tank' will be unhappy. Those wanting evidence of a good coaching staff? Happy
Click to expand...
Oh to the contrary!

I'm advocating for the tank for 2019 and I'm ecstatic about it! Here's why.

It's a lot to learn before a player can get all of those different techniques and reads down right, and it will be a painful growth period for many players. Also, its the sort of thing that the 2nd game you play in it will be drastically better than the first game you play in it. But you're learning so much, the mental capacity of the players must go up. In fact, draftniks are already saying a good pass rusher like Montez Sweat may not even be on our draft board because putting in the work and mastering the mental side of it aren't his strong suits.

In year 1, it will be filled with errors … because that learning curve is steep even for veterans. The fruits of this shift will appear towards the end of season 1 and more pronounced in season 2, and probably will take until season 3 to really hit full stride, honestly. With the personnel turnover typical of new coaching staffs, year 2 will be a learning year for a bunch of players as well. But the end result will be a better defense.

Also, we can't possibly fix both the offense and defense for new systems and new coaches in one offseason … it's just too much to ask. So, don't be surprised if we don't play with a typical prototype NT … and yes, that will hurt us in year 1, but can be added in year 2's draft. Don't be surprised if our young LB's (particularly Baker) struggle with this transition, making a number of mental lapses as they absorb this complex system. And, given our personnel, only maybe Charles Harris--who has thus far been a bust--even fits the profile for a DE/OLB who fits into a multiple scheme. That means we're going to be playing rookies … many of them. I'm not at all expecting an overnight transformation from sucky to excellent. What better year to endure those growing pains than a tanking year?

Also, I expect us to play a poor QB, and that means our offense isn't going to be very good. Likewise, our offensive draft picks will likely be along the OL, again .. ripe area for rookie mistakes. Plus, when we tank it's usually an ideal time to play a lot of raw young guys and hope a few develop, knowing full well that most will just be liabilities that season and not ever develop into good players. So, turnovers, 3-and-outs, and low point production should be a staple in year 1.

So many games in the NFL are close … whether they turn on takeaway or the inability of an offense to sustain a drive by converting 3rd downs or its ability to convert in the red zone … many games are decided by less than 2 TD's. It doesn't take much to be just a little less good … but it does take commitment from the coaching staff, and to get that you need long-term faith in them from the Owner and GM. If the season is divided into quartiles, and most coaches look at the season like this, then we're looking to win 1 of 4 each quartile. At our best, we're probably only a 2 of 4 team after all of these changes and the direction the roster will go. It shouldn't be too hard to provide vanilla gameplans and outmatched players at key positions like QB and NT and have the 2019 season be a real tank.

But if we do spend that season stressing the fundamentals and building the knowledge and mastery of these schemes, 2020 looks to be a much improved year. Add in the fact we will have a QB, finish acquiring the right personnel (e.g. NT, flexible DE/OLB's, QB, OL) we should see a major improvement for the 2020 season, and by 2021 be well on our way through a successful rebuild.
 
DolfanISS said:
So not 90% Nickel?
Click to expand...
I liked the Big Nickel...would have liked it even more if Jopnes played the hybrid and Fitzpatrick had a season in centerfield.
 
Dexter Lawrence has to be the pick at #13 IMO...to h*ll with the value.
 
1 gap is good for taylor and godchaux

but man does that leave us with some multiple front holes to fill
 
Digital said:
Oh to the contrary!

I'm advocating for the tank for 2019 and I'm ecstatic about it! Here's why.

It's a lot to learn before a player can get all of those different techniques and reads down right, and it will be a painful growth period for many players. Also, its the sort of thing that the 2nd game you play in it will be drastically better than the first game you play in it. But you're learning so much, the mental capacity of the players must go up. In fact, draftniks are already saying a good pass rusher like Montez Sweat may not even be on our draft board because putting in the work and mastering the mental side of it aren't his strong suits.

In year 1, it will be filled with errors … because that learning curve is steep even for veterans. The fruits of this shift will appear towards the end of season 1 and more pronounced in season 2, and probably will take until season 3 to really hit full stride, honestly. With the personnel turnover typical of new coaching staffs, year 2 will be a learning year for a bunch of players as well. But the end result will be a better defense.

Also, we can't possibly fix both the offense and defense for new systems and new coaches in one offseason … it's just too much to ask. So, don't be surprised if we don't play with a typical prototype NT … and yes, that will hurt us in year 1, but can be added in year 2's draft. Don't be surprised if our young LB's (particularly Baker) struggle with this transition, making a number of mental lapses as they absorb this complex system. And, given our personnel, only maybe Charles Harris--who has thus far been a bust--even fits the profile for a DE/OLB who fits into a multiple scheme. That means we're going to be playing rookies … many of them. I'm not at all expecting an overnight transformation from sucky to excellent. What better year to endure those growing pains than a tanking year?

Also, I expect us to play a poor QB, and that means our offense isn't going to be very good. Likewise, our offensive draft picks will likely be along the OL, again .. ripe area for rookie mistakes. Plus, when we tank it's usually an ideal time to play a lot of raw young guys and hope a few develop, knowing full well that most will just be liabilities that season and not ever develop into good players. So, turnovers, 3-and-outs, and low point production should be a staple in year 1.

So many games in the NFL are close … whether they turn on takeaway or the inability of an offense to sustain a drive by converting 3rd downs or its ability to convert in the red zone … many games are decided by less than 2 TD's. It doesn't take much to be just a little less good … but it does take commitment from the coaching staff, and to get that you need long-term faith in them from the Owner and GM. If the season is divided into quartiles, and most coaches look at the season like this, then we're looking to win 1 of 4 each quartile. At our best, we're probably only a 2 of 4 team after all of these changes and the direction the roster will go. It shouldn't be too hard to provide vanilla gameplans and outmatched players at key positions like QB and NT and have the 2019 season be a real tank.

But if we do spend that season stressing the fundamentals and building the knowledge and mastery of these schemes, 2020 looks to be a much improved year. Add in the fact we will have a QB, finish acquiring the right personnel (e.g. NT, flexible DE/OLB's, QB, OL) we should see a major improvement for the 2020 season, and by 2021 be well on our way through a successful rebuild.
Click to expand...

Actually, we seem to agree.
"The fruits of this shift will appear towards the end of season 1" I agree. But here is an unknown. Who will Miami play the last 8 games? Poor teams give a shot at 3-4 wins instead of 2 wins. we don't know.

"we can't possibly fix both the offense and defense for new systems and new coaches in one offseason." Agree, . . . kinda. We don't know Flores' plan. we know there will be some cuts this winter, but Sitton? Quinn? Jones? James? we don't know, we can't say how much of a "fix' is needed. Keeping Sitton and getting a solid OG . . . OL is fixed. One solid DT would help a lot. Same with one CB. I'm not saying fixed as in 'top 5' NFL, but fixed as in filling gaping holes. Will Miami get a stud OG/DT in the draft? We don't know. So, I agree, we can't COMPLETELY fix OL/DL and there will be a learning curve, but significant upgrades to 2-3 positions will fix the biggest holes.

"I expect us to play a poor QB, and that means our offense isn't going to be very good." You judiciously used "expect." That doesn't mean you or I know. Flores could draft a top QB this year. Maybe he just wants a 'game manager.' We'll find out. And, regardless of QB, he'll have some weapons. If Flores actually schemes players open and looks for mismatches, the O could surprise.

"So many games in the NFL are close " Agree again. And, in any close game, one miracle catch, one penalty, one fumble can swing a game, and not always to the advantage of the better team.

I've said elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised at 6-10. Not predicting it, but I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of it depends on coaching and injuries. A lot of it is 'we don't know yet.' I DO think, by the last 8 games, the team will be better than some expect. The flip side is the schedule. It's not easy. And a lot of good teams in the final 8 will make it difficult.

My point is, for the 1st time in a while, there is A LOT fans don't know. Who stays/who leaves? Is the coaching legit? Who will the draft picks be? QB in '19 or '20. We just don't know. If most of these fall Miami's way, the 'tank' may not be what some get. If they fall against Miami, you'll get your pleasure. I'm guessing most falling to Miami's favor would not make you happy.
 
fansinceGWilson said:
Actually, we seem to agree.
"The fruits of this shift will appear towards the end of season 1" I agree. But here is an unknown. Who will Miami play the last 8 games? Poor teams give a shot at 3-4 wins instead of 2 wins. we don't know.

"we can't possibly fix both the offense and defense for new systems and new coaches in one offseason." Agree, . . . kinda. We don't know Flores' plan. we know there will be some cuts this winter, but Sitton? Quinn? Jones? James? we don't know, we can't say how much of a "fix' is needed. Keeping Sitton and getting a solid OG . . . OL is fixed. One solid DT would help a lot. Same with one CB. I'm not saying fixed as in 'top 5' NFL, but fixed as in filling gaping holes. Will Miami get a stud OG/DT in the draft? We don't know. So, I agree, we can't COMPLETELY fix OL/DL and there will be a learning curve, but significant upgrades to 2-3 positions will fix the biggest holes.

"I expect us to play a poor QB, and that means our offense isn't going to be very good." You judiciously used "expect." That doesn't mean you or I know. Flores could draft a top QB this year. Maybe he just wants a 'game manager.' We'll find out. And, regardless of QB, he'll have some weapons. If Flores actually schemes players open and looks for mismatches, the O could surprise.

"So many games in the NFL are close " Agree again. And, in any close game, one miracle catch, one penalty, one fumble can swing a game, and not always to the advantage of the better team.

I've said elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised at 6-10. Not predicting it, but I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of it depends on coaching and injuries. A lot of it is 'we don't know yet.' I DO think, by the last 8 games, the team will be better than some expect. The flip side is the schedule. It's not easy. And a lot of good teams in the final 8 will make it difficult.

My point is, for the 1st time in a while, there is A LOT fans don't know. Who stays/who leaves? Is the coaching legit? Who will the draft picks be? QB in '19 or '20. We just don't know. If most of these fall Miami's way, the 'tank' may not be what some get. If they fall against Miami, you'll get your pleasure. I'm guessing most falling to Miami's favor would not make you happy.
Click to expand...
There is a lot we agree on it seems!

The last 8 games … well that's on the coaching staff, IMHO. If they start to feel they may not survive the tanking, or if they instill too much belief in the players collectively, or if they develop extremely good gameplans, or just plain get lucky … we could go on a win streak like Matt Moore led us on when we laughingly squandered an 0-7 start in the Suck for Luck sweepstakes to miraculously win meaningless games at the end and go 6-10. That was the touchstone for the Tannehill era instead of the Luck era we were headed towards. It could happen again. But if the owner and GM keep their faith in the coaching staff, and the staff manages things correctly, and we have a Curtis Painter QB rather than a gunslinger with some talent like Matt Moore, we will not have a problem late in the season. By then, too many players will have given up without coaching staff to inspire them and gameplan to win. Sparano didn't survive his late season winning spree, and he wasn't around to coach up the rookie QB. But I imagine that lesson is never really learned, so we don't really know.

Part of my expectation, which happens with almost every new coaching staff, is that there will be a purge of high priced veterans in favor of less expensive young guys who can grow with the program. There may be an exception or two, but not many, so I'm expecting us to move on from a lot of veterans, including Tannehill, Parker, Amendola, Gore, James, Sitton, Jones, Kiko, Quinn, Hayes, Branch, and probably Wake. So the OL and DL will need rookies, and there aren't too many high draft picks, so I'm not expecting either line (OL or DL) to be completely fixed in one year. But I'm expecting the OL to be the priority to start paving the way for our 2020 QB, whomever that may be.

The QB situation is absolutely critical, as the descent from 10-6 of Tannehill/Moore to the 6-10 of Jay Cutler can attest. Given that our talent level will be below that of the Jay Cutler team, and literally everyone on the roster will be learning new systems, I think a bad QB can put us in the 1 to 4 win range we will need to effectively tank for a 2020 QB. If you're worry proves correct, and we find a fairly competent QB like Matt Moore, and he is supported by a coaching staff that wants to win … we're going to end up failing in our attempt to tank for the second time … as ridiculously incompetent as that sounds. We will have, in essence, become the NY Jets. I'm hoping, and expecting, that we'll learn from our previous tank attempt and do it right. If not … we're doomed for another cycle of mediocrity, IMHO.

Yep, as the Miracle in Miami proves … anything can happen in a single game. The goal of tanking is to prevent adding 2 or 3 wins on top of those fluke wins. But who knows, maybe we'll fail at that too. I sure hope not.

If we end up 5-11, 6-10, 7-9 or 8-8, then I'd say we failed tanking. If we win 10+ games … I'm open to exploring where that goes, and hopefully it's not another one year fluke like it was for Sparano and Gase. Win 1-4 games and I'll say well done tanking, and I'll gladly be ready to add a great QB prospect in 2020. But, win 5 to 8 games … and all we've shown is that we are utterly incompetent, and everyone's jobs are at risk. That kind of failure really fast-tracks decisions, so it needs to be fixed in either direction by the following year. If we end up with the top pick in 2021 and get Trevor Lawrence … that's a remedy of sorts. If we end up finishing 4th worst and end up with nobody … that's when we nuke it again and start fresh will all new people. The real goal should be to tank effectively in 2019 and get a top QB prospect in 2020. Then let Coach Flores build his team with lots of young players and a healthy salary cap to make his systems work.

In the end, we both agree … nothing is certain. There is no guarantee that any prospect will be exceptional. But, IMHO, the odds are strongly in favor of it working if we stick with the plan and tank to get a top 2020 draft pick and use it on one of those elite QB prospects.
 
Last edited:
bout ****ing time

our defense has been dreadful up and down top to bottom for longer than I can remember

howard's interceptions kept us from being ..i can't even think of a word to describe worse than what we were
 
Digital said:
I'm pretty sure it will still be mostly nickel and dime. While the 43 vs 34 used to mean the front seven … I think it's being bastardized a bit here. What they really mean is a 3 man front sometimes and a 4 man front other times. Or, as Slimm points out, this is a variation of how we implement the 4th guy, who sometimes will look like a LB and other times look like a DE.

This is very exciting. The Patriots have taken prospects that didn't quite fit into other schemes perfectly and used them effectively with this multiple front approach. It almost reminds me of Bill Walsh, who designed one of the first ball-control short passing systems, called the West Coast Offense after his west coast San Francisco 49'ers (but he initially developed it in Cincinnati to deal with QB Ken Anderson's decreased arm strength). Walsh was looking for offensive linemen who were mobile, but was OK with guys who didn't quite have as much power and size. So, he could get guys who were ideal for his system in the middle rounds, so he traded back, got lots of picks, and took those guys at what was essentially a discount.

The Patriots have gotten guys who have good athletic ability, but maybe not truly elite quickness or maybe not ideal length, so they slipped down the draft boards or were cut. The Patriots recycled a lot of those guys and sifted through them to find a few really good fits. Guys like Kyle Van Noy, who failed elsewhere, but succeeded in the multiple front system because he does a number of things fairly well.

What makes this so encouraging is that it means we should be able to build a competitive defense, and maybe a good defense, relatively quickly. Seeing as how that is Coach Flores' area of concentration, I'm excited to see what he builds. Given that we're tanking for a year, that gives him two drafts and two off-seasons to get his guys in place. We haven't had a strong defense since the Coyle/Nolan years, and many people made it their life's focus to criticize them. Honestly, they were pretty good overall. This system that Flores/Graham want to run probably means that in a few years our defense is going to return to being a perennial top 10 defense … and it will be a welcome return.
Click to expand...

Good stuff...

For me this directly relates to high IQ coaching with a keen eye towards talent evaluation -- yet more specifically -- utilizing the prevailing talent in creative and innovative ways.

Your take on Walsh is spot on -- and tho at the time I couldn't stand the arrogant SOB, there's no doubt he was a brilliant football mind and pretty much changed the course of the game as much as any coach -- even (going wayyyyyy back) Paul Brown.

Early to mid Shula was also strong at finding talent in bargain bins and making really smart trades -- tho his proficiency of college talent evaluation betrayed him in his latter days. But let's go back and remember Joe Thomas and Bobby Beathard -- both who were brilliant evaluators -- Beathard among the very best ever IMO.

Relating this to the topic of the thread -- I hope Flores & Co are both innovative schematically and creative in their evaluation/utilization of talent. Seriously, the smart approach is the key to winning consistently and finding the edge over the competition.

Honestly I have no idea if Flores is a certified high IQ football coach. But from the get go, I liked the fact he came up from scouting and had essentially a holistic training/mentorship under BB in NE. Tho of course I can't stand that certified cheater there's no denying he's a mofo force @HC.

Last -- it's those "tweeners" and "hybrid" dudes where you can really find some amazing value -- and as JJ clearly demonstrated -- dudes way out of traditional spec like Zach and JT (who was bean pole rookie) can be HOF.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom