Don't be Surprised . . .

[Snoop]

I really struggle with that. First, the years of Philbin/Gase had one coach (Philbin) who saw no need to give the FO a hint on what he needed - position or fit. Then, Philbin decided which of those draftees he wanted and where he wanted them AND, apparently, with little coaching. Gase . . . we all know. There's a reason a number of players leaving Miami have found good homes on other teams. That doesn't absolve Grier, but it mitigates the blame. 'Collaboration' doesn't mean 'equal say.' I doubt there was a vote on each draft prospect. More likely, a number of people had input. Most here have had input in their jobs, but that doesn't mean equal say.

Baum? For his tenure, many here blamed HIM for the bad drafts. He controlled the draft room and FAs. That didn't mean Grier had NO blame, but there's a reason not all teams dump an entire FO.

Scouting? You're right on Grier. OTOH, I don't think it's coincidence he brought in people highly respected for their knowledge of evaluating talent. Admittedly, no one knows how that will work out.

I'm a fan of Grier in how he's handled salaries/cap/trades. To date, fans have seen a number of players brought in by churn who've appeared to play well. Not all of them, but there's a reason they were available. I'm agnostic on drafting. The 2018 class seems to be a clear improvement over previous years. The 2019 class has no stars, but Wilkins and Deiter are starters (and should mature in year 2), Cox is getting significant snaps, AVG and Gaskins show promise. Needham, Laird, and Williams are clear successes. Ledbetter flashed promise, but, admittedly, is unknown. In the NFL that's called an average draft and a better evaluation can be made next winter.

Again, I'm not praising Grier, but the FO had had a lot of changes and whether those changes work or not is unknown. I think fans should withhold judgement till there is more evidence.

I think what it all really comes down to is trust (or lack of) in the owner. I don’t trust Stephen Ross to effectively sort good from bad. I don’t trust him to make the right call on who should stay, who should go, who’s responsible and who’s clear of blame. His decision making in his 11 years as majority owner has been nothing short of terrible. Fortunately for him there’s no one above him to fire him so we’re stuck with him.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

I think what it all really comes down to is trust (or lack of) in the owner. I don’t trust Stephen Ross to effectively sort good from bad. I don’t trust him to make the right call on who should stay, who should go, who’s responsible and who’s clear of blame. His decision making in his 11 years as majority owner has been nothing short of terrible. Fortunately for him there’s no one above him to fire him so we’re stuck with him.

Can't disagree

 

[Snoop]

I really struggle with that. First, the years of Philbin/Gase had one coach (Philbin) who saw no need to give the FO a hint on what he needed - position or fit. Then, Philbin decided which of those draftees he wanted and where he wanted them AND, apparently, with little coaching. Gase . . . we all know. There's a reason a number of players leaving Miami have found good homes on other teams. That doesn't absolve Grier, but it mitigates the blame. 'Collaboration' doesn't mean 'equal say.' I doubt there was a vote on each draft prospect. More likely, a number of people had input. Most here have had input in their jobs, but that doesn't mean equal say.

Baum? For his tenure, many here blamed HIM for the bad drafts. He controlled the draft room and FAs. That didn't mean Grier had NO blame, but there's a reason not all teams dump an entire FO.

Scouting? You're right on Grier. OTOH, I don't think it's coincidence he brought in people highly respected for their knowledge of evaluating talent. Admittedly, no one knows how that will work out.

I'm a fan of Grier in how he's handled salaries/cap/trades. To date, fans have seen a number of players brought in by churn who've appeared to play well. Not all of them, but there's a reason they were available. I'm agnostic on drafting. The 2018 class seems to be a clear improvement over previous years. The 2019 class has no stars, but Wilkins and Deiter are starters (and should mature in year 2), Cox is getting significant snaps, AVG and Gaskins show promise. Needham, Laird, and Williams are clear successes. Ledbetter flashed promise, but, admittedly, is unknown. In the NFL that's called an average draft and a better evaluation can be made next winter.

Again, I'm not praising Grier, but the FO had had a lot of changes and whether those changes work or not is unknown. I think fans should withhold judgement till there is more evidence.

And I don’t think this is entirely true. Tannenbaum likely ran free agency but the draft/scouting was/is Grier’s expertise. He’s said quite a few times that he had final say in the draft (2016-2018). Mike T shared those sentiments. I know it’s convenient to think Tannenbaum was at fault for everything and that’s why Ross let him go and kept Grier but I think that’s an incredibly myopic way of looking at things and really just a way to make yourself feel better about the current makeup of the front office. Most importantly it’s in direct contrast to Grier’s own words.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article229374079.html

Grier, you see, had final say over the Miami drafts in 2016. And 2017. And 2018.

“Yes, I did,” he said Wednesday during his fourth annual pre-draft press conference. “It was a collaboration. As you know me, I’m not going to force a coach to pick a player. That doesn’t work. If a coach doesn’t want a player and I say, ‘No, we’re taking him,’ and then it works out one way or the other, it creates that animosity and the distrust. And it’s not worth it.

“You’ve been here long enough, you’ve seen a lot of that happen. So I’m not going to force any player on anyone. But, yes, I had final say.”

 

[Snoop]

I really struggle with that. First, the years of Philbin/Gase had one coach (Philbin) who saw no need to give the FO a hint on what he needed - position or fit. Then, Philbin decided which of those draftees he wanted and where he wanted them AND, apparently, with little coaching. Gase . . . we all know. There's a reason a number of players leaving Miami have found good homes on other teams. That doesn't absolve Grier, but it mitigates the blame. 'Collaboration' doesn't mean 'equal say.' I doubt there was a vote on each draft prospect. More likely, a number of people had input. Most here have had input in their jobs, but that doesn't mean equal say.

Also how is this different from any front office?

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Also how is this different from any front office?

Probably not much different, which is why most teams have poor drafts. Right now, everyone is speculating. The '19 draft didn't draft a 'star' (although no one know what the R2 pick if there had been no Rosen), but a number of good players were found and another year to mature may make it look better (or worse). I think everyone agrees Miami brought in what are considered better scouts, Flo and staff seem better at evaluating talent (Ballage excepted), and everyone agrees this is a critical draft year coming up.
I think we'd all be better off waiting for more evidence.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

And I don’t think this is entirely true. Tannenbaum likely ran free agency but the draft/scouting was/is Grier’s expertise. He’s said quite a few times that he had final say in the draft (2016-2018). Mike T shared those sentiments. I know it’s convenient to think Tannenbaum was at fault for everything and that’s why Ross let him go and kept Grier but I think that’s an incredibly myopic way of looking at things and really just a way to make yourself feel better about the current makeup of the front office. Most importantly it’s in direct contrast to Grier’s own words.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article229374079.html

Grier, you see, had final say over the Miami drafts in 2016. And 2017. And 2018.

“Yes, I did,” he said Wednesday during his fourth annual pre-draft press conference. “It was a collaboration. As you know me, I’m not going to force a coach to pick a player. That doesn’t work. If a coach doesn’t want a player and I say, ‘No, we’re taking him,’ and then it works out one way or the other, it creates that animosity and the distrust. And it’s not worth it.

“You’ve been here long enough, you’ve seen a lot of that happen. So I’m not going to force any player on anyone. But, yes, I had final say.”

Yup, but final say with input. From the quotes you include, the HC seemed to have 'real' final say. "I’m not going to force any player on anyone. But, yes, I had final say.”

 

[39wildman]

And I don’t think this is entirely true. Tannenbaum likely ran free agency but the draft/scouting was/is Grier’s expertise. He’s said quite a few times that he had final say in the draft (2016-2018). Mike T shared those sentiments. I know it’s convenient to think Tannenbaum was at fault for everything and that’s why Ross let him go and kept Grier but I think that’s an incredibly myopic way of looking at things and really just a way to make yourself feel better about the current makeup of the front office. Most importantly it’s in direct contrast to Grier’s own words.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article229374079.html

Grier, you see, had final say over the Miami drafts in 2016. And 2017. And 2018.

“Yes, I did,” he said Wednesday during his fourth annual pre-draft press conference. “It was a collaboration. As you know me, I’m not going to force a coach to pick a player. That doesn’t work. If a coach doesn’t want a player and I say, ‘No, we’re taking him,’ and then it works out one way or the other, it creates that animosity and the distrust. And it’s not worth it.

“You’ve been here long enough, you’ve seen a lot of that happen. So I’m not going to force any player on anyone. But, yes, I had final say.”

Drafting player and what a coach want got mix into equation also. I think dolphins Gase,Grier and Tbum sack. During 2016-2018. They all should of been fired.

 

[mwestberry]

Tannenbaum likely ran free agency but the draft/scouting was/is Grier’s expertise. He’s said quite a few times that he had final say in the draft (2016-2018).

Maybe Tbaum's free agency moves influenced the decisions made in the draft? … IDK but it makes sense if we sign Suh to a huge contract why would we target the same position as a real need? Could we have passed on possible studs because of moves like this? I see how one hand washes the other in this case although I have zero knowledge if it happened.... both Grier and Tbaum had to work in tandem to an extent and I'm not sure who's hand was the lead but in retrospect they clearly didn't work well together.

 

[Snoop]

Yup, but final say with input. From the quotes you include, the HC seemed to have 'real' final say. "I’m not going to force any player on anyone. But, yes, I had final say.”

Again, how is this different from any other front office? You’re reaching to absolve Grier of as much blame as you can. Nobody put a gun to his head and told him to take Charles Harris. He had final say, of course he’ll receive input from Gase, Tannenbaum, the position coaches, every GM does. But it’s ultimately their call who’s name is written on the card.

 

[ATL_PHIN_FAN]

Again, how is this different from any other front office? You’re reaching to absolve Grier of as much blame as you can. Nobody put a gun to his head and told him to take Charles Harris. He had final say, of course he’ll receive input from Gase, Tannenbaum, the position coaches, every GM does. But it’s ultimately their call who’s name is written on the card.

I think it's pretty clear Ross wanted someone he knew and felt good about running this rebuild. In fact, he spent a full minute talking about how respected Grier is in NFL scouting and FO circles when he announced Grier's promotion to head honcho. Was that the correct decision? Unknown at this point, IMO.

We can hopefully presume Ross knew what the real deal was. Who actually wanted what, when among Gace, Grier and Tannenbaum. As well as, what actual combination of them made what decisions and why. In hind sight, I have to believe that knowledge had a lot to do with the firings of both Gace and Tannenbaum.

For me, it's also clear that only Grier has had final say since January '19. The results of Griers '19 decisions aren't yet complete, and the '20 FA and draft will soon be here to give us more information with which to make a fair judgement. As a fan, I'm satisfied with waiting at least that long to form an opinion one way or the other.

 

[BSQ]

I do look at Josh Rosen as part of that draft. And the way we got fleeced out of 2 picks for a guy who isn't the future is part of the reason Grier sucks as a GM.

A guy whose production up to this point could be mirrored by many. We could have drafted Gardner Minshew with either of the picks we traded for Josh Rosen and still picked up another player.

But no... instead we picked up a glorified project quarterback who isn't ready for the big time and I am supposed to laud this GM with praise. I hope Chris Grier gets a season ending injury... actually I hope he gets a career ending injury like Tua just did. Where is Vontaze Burfict when you need him?

So you're kind of the glass is half full of poison!!

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Again, how is this different from any other front office? You’re reaching to absolve Grier of as much blame as you can. Nobody put a gun to his head and told him to take Charles Harris. He had final say, of course he’ll receive input from Gase, Tannenbaum, the position coaches, every GM does. But it’s ultimately their call who’s name is written on the card.

Let's see if I understand. Grier has "final say." Ummm, unless the HC vetos it. Your definition of final say and mine are different.
Yes, Grier and others put together the board. Yes, Grier uses the list he and others create. Don't deny any of that. And, yes, most teams operate like that. Again, why most teams have average to poor drafts.
BUT, I'm "absolving" Grier of nothing. You'll see in a minute. We seem to disagree only by degree. How much of Grier's input is used to create the board? Has he looked at hours of tape? He certainly wasn't the one who did all the interviews nor the one who monitored all the combine and private workouts. He listens to the staff, listens to the HC and staff, and puts the board together. He DOES have final say over judgement calls between players and priorities. No, no one made him select Charles Harris, but someone could have told him NOT to and a number of someones decided he was the top pick.
One more, matter of degree. If you think he sits in a conference room and puts all desired played on the list and prioritizes that list without a consensus of those in the room, we have a significant disagreement.
Where I think we'll agree is Grier DOES have a say over who's in the room. He has control over the HC and scouts. THAT is where is gets credit/blame for the draft. As I said earlier, he has his HC and he hired what we hope are good scouts. We'll know more in May '20 and even more in Jan '21.

 

[Feverdream]

You guys have kicked this around a great deal, but let me add one thing.
I worked at a hospital for 36 years and all of the General Managers there were not medical professionals; they were businessmen. They handled contracts and p.r. They settled disputes between departments... Yes, the had the 'final say', but this never implied that the final decision was one they actually endorsed.

Most G.M.s tend to work like this. ...and it may be that this is Grier's strength. Sorting through the various agendas and bringing in analysts that are better than himself.

Most people have been happy with Grier's trades and business moves, but want to shred him for the drafting.

True or not, he has brought in some powerful evaluators to help there.... and that sounds like the type of low-ego G.M. that we need.

 

[phintim]

Throwing in views here.

Tbaum recently fired last year is the GM of trainwrecks in his tenure as GM with the Browns, Jets and now Dolphins leaving every franchise in full rebuild mode after his departure. This hire imo is on Ross and was a very very very bad hire.

Gase was the classic scenario of the chicken or the egg. Gases rookie year he rode the lucky legs of Jay Ajayi into the playoffs. In hindsight Gase got lucky and we as fans got blinded by that year. When talented players started disappearing off the roster because of Gase the writing was on the wall.

Grier the GM. As Grier has stated his job is to draft the players that works for the coach and organization. Given in hindsight we can now evaluate both Tbum and Gase seperatley and both come up far short as sucessful candidates their lack of success directly reflects on Grier. So deservingly Grier gets a pass for now imo.

Flores. First the lack of sucess of former Pats assistant coaches is troubling imo. Its like Billicheat has only hired yes men over the years and thus they never really learned how to coach. Also loosing talent like Fitz, Drake they wanted to keep and Clowning not willing to sign here is concerning. Playing guys like Ballage, McCain out of position plus some of his weekly oline moves makes me scratch my head some.
Regardless of all these issues I am Flores fan based on what appears on his ability to develop talent and his improved play calling.

Next year with the churn rate down and improved roster the picture will be much cleared what we have with Gase and Flores as the excuses for lack of performance will be gone.

 

[Snoop]

I think it's pretty clear Ross wanted someone he knew and felt good about running this rebuild. In fact, he spent a full minute talking about how respected Grier is in NFL scouting and FO circles when he announced Grier's promotion to head honcho. Was that the correct decision? Unknown at this point, IMO.

We can hopefully presume Ross knew what the real deal was. Who actually wanted what, when among Gace, Grier and Tannenbaum. As well as, what actual combination of them made what decisions and why. In hind sight, I have to believe that knowledge had a lot to do with the firings of both Gace and Tannenbaum.

For me, it's also clear that only Grier has had final say since January '19. The results of Griers '19 decisions aren't yet complete, and the '20 FA and draft will soon be here to give us more information with which to make a fair judgement. As a fan, I'm satisfied with waiting at least that long to form an opinion one way or the other.

Oh how convenient for him.