Edge at 36 overall? Buyer beware of these two University of Miami products | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Edge at 36 overall? Buyer beware of these two University of Miami products

SF Dolphin Fan said:
I think you are spot on with Phillips talent wise.

I'm just having a hard time looking past the concussions with Phillips. He's already retired from the sport once.

But, yes, I think Miami will have to take a chance on one of the edge rushers.

My pick might be Basham or Oweh. Basham was dominating every offensive lineman he faced at the Senior Bowl. He's more power player, run stopper than pure pass rusher, though.

Oweh is raw and might not contribute much year one, but it's like a baseball pitcher with a 100 mph fastball. Oweh has the speed and explosion that can't be taught.
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Those are other good prospects ... but maybe even bigger gambles. Honestly, I think we're on the same page though.

Basham ... huge gamble. Sometimes guys have the talent and it doesn't translate, and I don't know what the deal is with Basham ... but it worries me. I want a guy who produces and dominates the lesser competition of college kids like Suggs did before he joined the Baltimore Ravens. No-brainer .. elite athletic ability, elite skills, elite production ... how do teams miss this? But Basham .... there's a saying, "looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane." If the light comes on for a Basham or Kwity Paye ... we all love the upside. But ... they haven't put it all together, and Basham is one of the chief culprits.

Oweh is a guy who I can't help but love. But I gotta say he's raw ... and another guy I loved who was also raw a few years ago still hasn't put it all together, despite dominant tools ... but I can't remember his name atm, sorry. My issue for these guys is that we live in a 3-year league ... if you don't produce in year 3, you get churned. That goes for GM's, Coaches, and most players. So developing talent is a fools game ... it's volunteering to be a free farm system and agreeing to spend your top resources for the privilege to gift other teams a more developed player. So yes, I salivate over Oweh ... but I'm not pulling the trigger on him either because he's going to either not be great, or he'll be great for his 2nd team, but probably not the team that drafts him.

Zaven Collins has unreal productivity ... he's on par with Patrick Willis from a production and fit standpoint. The game has evolved since Willis though, and Collins can set the edge as a DE, cover LB's as good as anyone in college as a Brian Urlacher type MLB, stuff the run and generate TFL's and drive stoppers as well as plugging holes and forcing RB's to attempt to bounce it outside. Our defense funnels plays into the middle, so Collins could dominate there. Does he have truly elite speed? No. But he has good speed, good quickness, excellent size, and he's extremely solid with muscle mass, strong base, wide shoulders, wide hips, strong arms, and flexibility to play either DE, and all 3 LB positions so that's 5 of the 6 front 6 spots. Unreal. Durable, dependable, instinctive, leader, physical, versatile, athletic, big, strong, fast, quick, with real old-school LB skills like stack & shed, tackling, nose for the football, forcing fumbles, recovering fumbles, INT's, QB pressures ... really really solid player. One of the best LB's I've seen since Bobby Wilson came out and floored me as a perfect fit for the Seahawks defense. Collins would truly excel in Coach Flo's defense ... really at a consistent Pro Bowl level.

The only guy I'd say would be an even better fit for this defense would be ... wait for it ... Jaelan Phillips. @SF Dolphin Fan you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! He has two huge red flags ... 1) those concussions ... so durability is clearly in question. Along with that is 2) commitment to football from a guy who 'retired' from college game because of those concussions. Sometimes smart guys aren't great prospects, because they have options. We saw that with a few Texas DL prospects for a while, we probably saw that with Josh Rosen a bit ... and its not that he isn't committed to football as much as it is that he worries about his health--and rightfully so. So yes, there absolutely is a risk. If there were not these two concerns ... Phillips goes in the top 10 and we're not talking about him at the #18 position, we're talking about him at the #6 position. So I'd love to avoid this gamble.

But this year, our pass rush class is BAD .. like it seems to have been for many years. There is no elite Chase Young to save it. Every one of these guys is more than a prospect with a concern ... they're all bona fide gambles. We dug ourselves a big ole HOLE in our defense, and we MUST find an edge rusher, so we NEED to gamble on at least one of these guys. I'd rather not gamble on two of them, so I'm partial to hedging my bets to find a guy who produces ... and to me, the only two guys versatile enough to flourish under Flo and produce immediately are Jaelan Phillips or Zaven Collins. Everyone else is too much of a gamble for me, or unlikely to produce in year 1. :/
 
Digital said:
Those are other good prospects ... but maybe even bigger gambles. Honestly, I think we're on the same page though.

Basham ... huge gamble. Sometimes guys have the talent and it doesn't translate, and I don't know what the deal is with Basham ... but it worries me. I want a guy who produces and dominates the lesser competition of college kids like Suggs did before he joined the Baltimore Ravens. No-brainer .. elite athletic ability, elite skills, elite production ... how do teams miss this? But Basham .... there's a saying, "looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane." If the light comes on for a Basham or Kwity Paye ... we all love the upside. But ... they haven't put it all together, and Basham is one of the chief culprits.

Oweh is a guy who I can't help but love. But I gotta say he's raw ... and another guy I loved who was also raw a few years ago still hasn't put it all together, despite dominant tools ... but I can't remember his name atm, sorry. My issue for these guys is that we live in a 3-year league ... if you don't produce in year 3, you get churned. That goes for GM's, Coaches, and most players. So developing talent is a fools game ... it's volunteering to be a free farm system and agreeing to spend your top resources for the privilege to gift other teams a more developed player. So yes, I salivate over Oweh ... but I'm not pulling the trigger on him either because he's going to either not be great, or he'll be great for his 2nd team, but probably not the team that drafts him.

Zaven Collins has unreal productivity ... he's on par with Patrick Willis from a production and fit standpoint. The game has evolved since Willis though, and Collins can set the edge as a DE, cover LB's as good as anyone in college as a Brian Urlacher type MLB, stuff the run and generate TFL's and drive stoppers as well as plugging holes and forcing RB's to attempt to bounce it outside. Our defense funnels plays into the middle, so Collins could dominate there. Does he have truly elite speed? No. But he has good speed, good quickness, excellent size, and he's extremely solid with muscle mass, strong base, wide shoulders, wide hips, strong arms, and flexibility to play either DE, and all 3 LB positions so that's 5 of the 6 front 6 spots. Unreal. Durable, dependable, instinctive, leader, physical, versatile, athletic, big, strong, fast, quick, with real old-school LB skills like stack & shed, tackling, nose for the football, forcing fumbles, recovering fumbles, INT's, QB pressures ... really really solid player. One of the best LB's I've seen since Bobby Wilson came out and floored me as a perfect fit for the Seahawks defense. Collins would truly excel in Coach Flo's defense ... really at a consistent Pro Bowl level.

The only guy I'd say would be an even better fit for this defense would be ... wait for it ... Jaelan Phillips. @SF Dolphin Fan you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! He has two huge red flags ... 1) those concussions ... so durability is clearly in question. Along with that is 2) commitment to football from a guy who 'retired' from college game because of those concussions. Sometimes smart guys aren't great prospects, because they have options. We saw that with a few Texas DL prospects for a while, we probably saw that with Josh Rosen a bit ... and its not that he isn't committed to football as much as it is that he worries about his health--and rightfully so. So yes, there absolutely is a risk. If there were not these two concerns ... Phillips goes in the top 10 and we're not talking about him at the #18 position, we're talking about him at the #6 position. So I'd love to avoid this gamble.

But this year, our pass rush class is BAD .. like it seems to have been for many years. There is no elite Chase Young to save it. Every one of these guys is more than a prospect with a concern ... they're all bona fide gambles. We dug ourselves a big ole HOLE in our defense, and we MUST find an edge rusher, so we NEED to gamble on at least one of these guys. I'd rather not gamble on two of them, so I'm partial to hedging my bets to find a guy who produces ... and to me, the only two guys versatile enough to flourish under Flo and produce immediately are Jaelan Phillips or Zaven Collins. Everyone else is too much of a gamble for me, or unlikely to produce in year 1. :/
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Total agreement on Collins. I would have no problem securing him at #18

Tryon is another who could fit at DE, maybe around that #36 pick.

Well said about the NFL being a three year league. That would be my main issue with Oweh. That and Miami being in a position to contend and needing immediate contributions.
 
Austin Tatious said:
Rousseau at one point was considered near the top of the draft. Now I heard Kiper say possibly second round. I think the swerve is over-correcting. I would not be shocked at all if he becomes a Jason Pierre Paul type of disruptor. That is the feel I get.

This isn’t Charles Harris. I think he’s a guy who you strongly consider at 18. Just my view.
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I think the over correction was pushing Rousseau so high to begin with. I was probably the first guy on this site to mention Rousseau, when he was still a backup for the Canes. I said he was the best looking athlete on the defense and his frame reminded me of LSU players. Then somehow within 6-8 weeks he's being projected to 20 sacks in 2020 and near the top of the draft in 2021. Gad. If everyone had just evaluated the big picture at that point, that this is a guy who redshirted in 2018 and his high school testing numbers were subpar for the position, the rating would have been in the proper second or third round range.

Rousseau is never going to be a circle the wagons defensive end. He's got some Clowney to him and also Dion Jordan. Long striding length and power instead of burst. Stymied on quite a few plays. It can look like he's not trying. But he's simply not explosive enough and is quickly stalled. On occasional plays he'll make it look like a sandlot game of unfair physical advantage, like that famous clip of Andy Reid in Punt, Pass and Kick.

I think he could be a very good 3-4 end who can also kick inside on situational passing downs while replaced outside by a guy with more natural burst. The Dolphins have a 6-7 guy for run downs so another move guy for passing downs makes some sense, if the value is right. I can't see Rousseau as decent value at 18. It would have to be second round or later.

I'm normally not a system guy but fit is vital for Rousseau. If he gets stuck on a 4-3 team and expected to rush the passer outside for a living it's going to flop. Those broad jump, vertical jump, short shuttle and 3-cone drills are superb indicators at pass rush potential. Rousseau flunked every drill. It is somewhat like Raekwon Davis last year. As Slimm continues to point out, Davis does nothing in space. If he had been drafted as a traditional 4-3 defensive tackle he would have been a disappointment, just like at Alabama. The Dolphins found the ideal role to play to his strengths...just clog and disrupt the interior by shoving the center backwards. Davis likewise was once projected to first round but fell to second round.

Last spring I mentioned in the Draft Forum that Canes insiders during spring practice were immediately shocked that Phillips was a far superior athlete to Rousseau. Keep in mind that Rousseau participated in spring drills before bowing out of the season itself. There was direct comparison for a minimal number of days and Phillips dominated. Phillips kind of reminds me of a Trace Armstrong type but more athletic.

I don't see how Phillips can go first round given those medicals. Maybe you'll get a Frank Gore situation of all clear in the pros after one issue after another in college. Gore fell to third round because logically there had to be some type of caution.

I didn't pay full attention in 2020 so my opinion of the other guy Roche probably doesn't mean much. Looked like a 3-4 outside linebacker rush specialist. Great for the kamikaze plays.
 
Can't touch Rousseau before the third round, imo. Not with the way he tested. Not explosive and not agile.

Phillips, conversely, is super explosive and super agile. He aced the jumps and short shuttle tests, which are vital for EDGE players. You can see the get off and the bend on tape, as well. He's also got a ridiculous initial punch to rock tackles back. Top 15 talent, but the concussions are a very real problem unfortunately. Where he gets drafted comes down to your medical evaluation.

I've been a big Quincy Roche fan since his Temple days. He fell somewhere between the two in terms of explosiveness and agility. He's smaller than Rousseau, so maybe that was expected. His tape is just real solid. He wins reps with technique, and his floor is safe because he's already a very good run stopper. Wouldn't be surprised to see him come off the board in the second round, and his value in the third round is great.
 
It's not just the medical eval with Philips. If the guy suffers any more concussions - and statistically that's very likely - he is likely to be strongly advised to retire. And he should take the advice.

The scans might look fine. Philips might be gagging to play in the pros. His body might be a temple. But his head is a ticking timebomb and if/when it goes off he'll probably need to call it quits.
 
Fin Thirteen said:
It's not just the medical eval with Philips. If the guy suffers any more concussions - and statistically that's very likely - he is likely to be strongly advised to retire. And he should take the advice.

The scans might look fine. Philips might be gagging to play in the pros. His body might be a temple. But his head is a ticking timebomb and if/when it goes off he'll probably need to call it quits.
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He's actually already had to retire once while at UCLA.
 
Very good discussion. Very informative. I appreciate the thoughts.

The concussion situation with Phillips is quite unfortunate.

It might be that there is no edge guy who meets value at 18. If that’s the case, don’t force it. 18 is still a high pick. Cannot go reaching there. Get a good asset even if he’s at a different position.
 
www.pff.com

2021 NFL Mock Draft: Denver Broncos trade up for QB Trey Lance, Florida TE Kyle Pitts lands with the Miami Dolphins at No. 6 | NFL Draft | PFF

PFF's Ben Linsey mocks the first round of the 2021 NFL Draft, sending Trevor Lawrence to Jacksonville, Trey Lance to Denver and Kyle Pitts to Miami. The 49ers also get their QB of the future in Ohio State's Justin Fields at No. 3 overall.
www.pff.com www.pff.com

Wow. The newest Mock has a rush for QB's early in the draft and then the Bengals drafting WR Chase. I'd love to see us Draft Pitts at 6 and then land Parsons at 18. Amazing possibilities! We could go Edge at 36 and then RB at 50, Center in Round 3.
 

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Awsi Dooger said:
I think the over correction was pushing Rousseau so high to begin with. I was probably the first guy on this site to mention Rousseau, when he was still a backup for the Canes. I said he was the best looking athlete on the defense and his frame reminded me of LSU players. Then somehow within 6-8 weeks he's being projected to 20 sacks in 2020 and near the top of the draft in 2021. Gad. If everyone had just evaluated the big picture at that point, that this is a guy who redshirted in 2018 and his high school testing numbers were subpar for the position, the rating would have been in the proper second or third round range.

Rousseau is never going to be a circle the wagons defensive end. He's got some Clowney to him and also Dion Jordan. Long striding length and power instead of burst. Stymied on quite a few plays. It can look like he's not trying. But he's simply not explosive enough and is quickly stalled. On occasional plays he'll make it look like a sandlot game of unfair physical advantage, like that famous clip of Andy Reid in Punt, Pass and Kick.

I think he could be a very good 3-4 end who can also kick inside on situational passing downs while replaced outside by a guy with more natural burst. The Dolphins have a 6-7 guy for run downs so another move guy for passing downs makes some sense, if the value is right. I can't see Rousseau as decent value at 18. It would have to be second round or later.

I'm normally not a system guy but fit is vital for Rousseau. If he gets stuck on a 4-3 team and expected to rush the passer outside for a living it's going to flop. Those broad jump, vertical jump, short shuttle and 3-cone drills are superb indicators at pass rush potential. Rousseau flunked every drill. It is somewhat like Raekwon Davis last year. As Slimm continues to point out, Davis does nothing in space. If he had been drafted as a traditional 4-3 defensive tackle he would have been a disappointment, just like at Alabama. The Dolphins found the ideal role to play to his strengths...just clog and disrupt the interior by shoving the center backwards. Davis likewise was once projected to first round but fell to second round.

Last spring I mentioned in the Draft Forum that Canes insiders during spring practice were immediately shocked that Phillips was a far superior athlete to Rousseau. Keep in mind that Rousseau participated in spring drills before bowing out of the season itself. There was direct comparison for a minimal number of days and Phillips dominated. Phillips kind of reminds me of a Trace Armstrong type but more athletic.

I don't see how Phillips can go first round given those medicals. Maybe you'll get a Frank Gore situation of all clear in the pros after one issue after another in college. Gore fell to third round because logically there had to be some type of caution.

I didn't pay full attention in 2020 so my opinion of the other guy Roche probably doesn't mean much. Looked like a 3-4 outside linebacker rush specialist. Great for the kamikaze plays.
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Good analysis. I also don't see any explosion with Rousseau. Not saying he's bad player, but most of his wins seem to come with power, or when the quarterback holds onto the ball too long (cover sacks).

I would rather roll the dice on Phillips, but multiple concussions is a scary deal.

I am very interested to see Basham's pro day and explosion numbers. He was dominating offensive linemen during Senior Bowl week.

I think Basham might be similar to Shaq Lawson as a plus run defender/edge setter. Miami could do worse than Basham.
 
It's definitely a mistake to pass on defensive players that are better just to reach for an Edge player. We replaced Lawson with Scarlett and there are still FA we could go after. If we pass on players like Parsons (LB) (Penn State) or
Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah (LB/SS) (Notre Dame) to reach for an edge it will be very disappointing.
There are a lot of ways to generate a pass rush, in fact having attended over 30 years of coaching clinics, Bill Belichick has always preferred building his offense and defense from the middle out. He did it with the Browns and he has done it with the Patriots. When he speaks at clinics he has mentioned this more than once. Our scheme is his scheme. We need to draft the best football players over positional need because there are many ways to use superior talent to generate pressure from all the angles. We can do with scheme what you can't do with a lack of talent at a "need position"...
 
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