First round target for 2022

[macd123]

I voted Linderbaum, but I haven't had the chance to give Cross a close look. Passing on Humphrey in the 2nd was painful, and having to draft a Center Top 15, because you passed, is doubly so, but his talent + Miami's dire need makes is what it is.

Love Burks, Wilson, and Bell, but the OL is just too bad. To Slimm's point, without new offensive coaches, I don't think it will matter.

I agree 100% on Humphrey, it was a no brainer. It's compounded by the fact we had a week with him at the Senior Bowl so we had plenty time to evaluate him. He's living up to his billing in KC, he's one of the best centers in the league already.

I'm hesitant to put any more rookies into the mix without adding a couple of vets. I think we need to be shopping from this list https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/offensive-line/

 

[ckparrothead]

Here's one of the bigger reasons I voted against Tyler Linderbaum (who I love) and in favor of Charles Cross.

Miami will get use out of Cross's special abilities.

I cannot be confident that Miami will get use out of Linderbaum's special abilities.

If you have Tyler Linderbaum, that represents quite the opportunity for running one of those Shanahan-esque systems that use a lot of outside zone. Slimm pointed it out in another thread. You see Linderbaum get ahead of a 4-technique on an outside zone play, that's a special skill...in a system which puts a lot of responsibility on the swing. But if you don't run one of those systems, it seems wasted.

Mike Pouncey was here from 2011 to 2017 and the offensive line continued to be bad every single year. But he was a good player with unique skills that often went to waste because they didn't really make consistent use of them.

I look at this line and the two tackles are not just the worst tackle tandem in the NFL, they're the worst tackle tandem I've ever seen in Miami, if not...ever. Whether it's Austin Jackson and Jesse Davis or it's Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis, it's the worst I've ever seen.

But oddly, whether it was Michael Deiter (who looked surprisingly good, IMO), Greg Mancz, or Austin Reiter, the center spot has looked competent all year. Part of that is very likely because Miami doesn't run a system that requires the center to do very difficult things. But even if they got Tyler Linderbaum, something tells me things wouldn't change. They'd just have a better player in a spot where they didn't ask him to do very difficult things.

But at least with Charles Cross, you could be confident that guy will mirror and box edge players about as well as I've seen a guy coming out of college, and I don't care what system you run, that translates in the NFL. It might be some time before you get enough meat on Cross's bones to have him realize his full potential, but you'd be getting a competent player in the meantime, at a spot where you currently have gross incompetence.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Here's one of the bigger reasons I voted against Tyler Linderbaum (who I love) and in favor of Charles Cross.

Miami will get use out of Cross's special abilities.

I cannot be confident that Miami will get use out of Linderbaum's special abilities.

If you have Tyler Linderbaum, that represents quite the opportunity for running one of those Shanahan-esque systems that use a lot of outside zone. Slimm pointed it out in another thread. You see Linderbaum get ahead of a 4-technique on an outside zone play, that's a special skill...in a system which puts a lot of responsibility on the swing. But if you don't run one of those systems, it seems wasted.

Mike Pouncey was here from 2011 to 2017 and the offensive line continued to be bad every single year. But he was a good player with unique skills that often went to waste because they didn't really make consistent use of them.

I look at this line and the two tackles are not just the worst tackle tandem in the NFL, they're the worst tackle tandem I've ever seen in Miami, if not...ever. Whether it's Austin Jackson and Jesse Davis or it's Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis, it's the worst I've ever seen.

But oddly, whether it was Michael Deiter (who looked surprisingly good, IMO), Greg Mancz, or Austin Reiter, the center spot has looked competent all year. Part of that is very likely because Miami doesn't run a system that requires the center to do very difficult things. But even if they got Tyler Linderbaum, something tells me things wouldn't change. They'd just have a better player in a spot where they didn't ask him to do very difficult things.

But at least with Charles Cross, you could be confident that guy will mirror and box edge players about as well as I've seen a guy coming out of college, and I don't care what system you run, that translates in the NFL. It might be some time before you get enough meat on Cross's bones to have him realize his full potential, but you'd be getting a competent player in the meantime, at a spot where you currently have gross incompetence.

Ultimately you're absolutely right. Miami needs tackles and it doesn't really matter how you get 'em or if the staff can develop 'em or not. You just have to get some because you don't have any.

The best running games typically have an athletic Center that they ask to pull, work in space, and do special things. It's always been that way. Whether you're talking about Dermontti Dawson, Tom Nalen, Kevin Mawae, Mark Stepnoski, Dwight Stephenson, Jeff Saturday, ....on and on. If you're not doing that and not asking the most out of the interior of your offensive line, you have schematic issues. Miami has schematic issues.

The Center position is a weapon in physical, elite running games and offenses. He can get to spots that your Guards can't get to, especially when he's left uncovered. You take advantage of it.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

And those schematic issues are with the RPO. You don't have an identity on offense and you can't be physical enough on the offensive line when you want to be. It starts in camp. It's the same issues Alabama is having with their offensive line this season. Guys like Landon Dickerson are hard to replace at Center. Not just physically, but the leadership and tone that a guy like that sets for the offensive line.

 

[macd123]

Here's one of the bigger reasons I voted against Tyler Linderbaum (who I love) and in favor of Charles Cross.

Miami will get use out of Cross's special abilities.

I cannot be confident that Miami will get use out of Linderbaum's special abilities.

If you have Tyler Linderbaum, that represents quite the opportunity for running one of those Shanahan-esque systems that use a lot of outside zone. Slimm pointed it out in another thread. You see Linderbaum get ahead of a 4-technique on an outside zone play, that's a special skill...in a system which puts a lot of responsibility on the swing. But if you don't run one of those systems, it seems wasted.

Mike Pouncey was here from 2011 to 2017 and the offensive line continued to be bad every single year. But he was a good player with unique skills that often went to waste because they didn't really make consistent use of them.

I look at this line and the two tackles are not just the worst tackle tandem in the NFL, they're the worst tackle tandem I've ever seen in Miami, if not...ever. Whether it's Austin Jackson and Jesse Davis or it's Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis, it's the worst I've ever seen.

But oddly, whether it was Michael Deiter (who looked surprisingly good, IMO), Greg Mancz, or Austin Reiter, the center spot has looked competent all year. Part of that is very likely because Miami doesn't run a system that requires the center to do very difficult things. But even if they got Tyler Linderbaum, something tells me things wouldn't change. They'd just have a better player in a spot where they didn't ask him to do very difficult things.

But at least with Charles Cross, you could be confident that guy will mirror and box edge players about as well as I've seen a guy coming out of college, and I don't care what system you run, that translates in the NFL. It might be some time before you get enough meat on Cross's bones to have him realize his full potential, but you'd be getting a competent player in the meantime, at a spot where you currently have gross incompetence.

Here's one of the bigger reasons I voted against Tyler Linderbaum (who I love) and in favor of Charles Cross.

Miami will get use out of Cross's special abilities.

I cannot be confident that Miami will get use out of Linderbaum's special abilities.

If you have Tyler Linderbaum, that represents quite the opportunity for running one of those Shanahan-esque systems that use a lot of outside zone. Slimm pointed it out in another thread. You see Linderbaum get ahead of a 4-technique on an outside zone play, that's a special skill...in a system which puts a lot of responsibility on the swing. But if you don't run one of those systems, it seems wasted.

Mike Pouncey was here from 2011 to 2017 and the offensive line continued to be bad every single year. But he was a good player with unique skills that often went to waste because they didn't really make consistent use of them.

I look at this line and the two tackles are not just the worst tackle tandem in the NFL, they're the worst tackle tandem I've ever seen in Miami, if not...ever. Whether it's Austin Jackson and Jesse Davis or it's Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis, it's the worst I've ever seen.

But oddly, whether it was Michael Deiter (who looked surprisingly good, IMO), Greg Mancz, or Austin Reiter, the center spot has looked competent all year. Part of that is very likely because Miami doesn't run a system that requires the center to do very difficult things. But even if they got Tyler Linderbaum, something tells me things wouldn't change. They'd just have a better player in a spot where they didn't ask him to do very difficult things.

But at least with Charles Cross, you could be confident that guy will mirror and box edge players about as well as I've seen a guy coming out of college, and I don't care what system you run, that translates in the NFL. It might be some time before you get enough meat on Cross's bones to have him realize his full potential, but you'd be getting a competent player in the meantime, at a spot where you currently have gross incompetence.

I like Cross but I worry that this is a too poor a situation for him to make the development he needs, ie adding good weight and improvements in play strength and anchor. Unless there are changes to staff and we find a good vet LG in FA, it might be too much to put on a rookie's shoulders. I'd look to FA to stem the bleeding first.

 

[ckparrothead]

I think you can take or not take a guy because you envision him being particularly valuable or not valuable in your scheme...but I don't think you ever make a decision to take or not take a guy on the basis of "my team sucks what's the point".

 

[macd123]

A position group not the whole team - I'm sure you agree the OL is historically bad. I think it's fair to decide if a position group needs a vet as opposed to a rookie. The Brown, Bucs and Chargers have all surrounded the tackles they drafted high with at least 3 quality vets, and in the Browns case the league's best OL coach. Rashawn Slater has Matt Feiler and Corey Linsley. If we stick with Lem as OL coach with Austin Jackson at LG, we'll be putting the guy in a position to fail.

 

[LargoFin]

We had a chance last draft to get Spencer Brown, Larry Borom, Landon Young.
The problem with the GM is that he is whiffing one after the other. That tells me they do not have a system.
If you have a system, ultimately you will win more than you will lose, and you may end up with 3 great players on OL and 2 busts, but not 10 - 15 busts one after the other.

 

[TONYS]

Lindbaum and it’s not close. Lock that position up for the next 10 years that guy is a slam dunk.

 

[ckparrothead]

A position group not the whole team - I'm sure you agree the OL is historically bad. I think it's fair to decide if a position group needs a vet as opposed to a rookie. The Brown, Bucs and Chargers have all surrounded the tackles they drafted high with at least 3 quality vets, and in the Browns case the league's best OL coach. Rashawn Slater has Matt Feiler and Corey Linsley. If we stick with Lem as OL coach with Austin Jackson at LG, we'll be putting the guy in a position to fail.

It's fair to decide whether a group needs such immediate help that veterans are the way to go but you talked about "unless there are changes to staff," and "too poor a situation," and all that just strikes me as Dolphins fan pessimism bleeding into the personnel decision-making in ways that aren't realistic in the NFL. If they don't think you have the staff in place that can tutor a rookie then you'll get a new staff. It's not how NFL people think.

 

[Ninja Foot]

They should trade out of the first altogether. Their hit rate is better in round 2, .

OT, coverage LB's, OG should be early priorities.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Here's one of the bigger reasons I voted against Tyler Linderbaum (who I love) and in favor of Charles Cross.

Miami will get use out of Cross's special abilities.

I cannot be confident that Miami will get use out of Linderbaum's special abilities.

If you have Tyler Linderbaum, that represents quite the opportunity for running one of those Shanahan-esque systems that use a lot of outside zone. Slimm pointed it out in another thread. You see Linderbaum get ahead of a 4-technique on an outside zone play, that's a special skill...in a system which puts a lot of responsibility on the swing. But if you don't run one of those systems, it seems wasted.

Mike Pouncey was here from 2011 to 2017 and the offensive line continued to be bad every single year. But he was a good player with unique skills that often went to waste because they didn't really make consistent use of them.

I look at this line and the two tackles are not just the worst tackle tandem in the NFL, they're the worst tackle tandem I've ever seen in Miami, if not...ever. Whether it's Austin Jackson and Jesse Davis or it's Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis, it's the worst I've ever seen.

But oddly, whether it was Michael Deiter (who looked surprisingly good, IMO), Greg Mancz, or Austin Reiter, the center spot has looked competent all year. Part of that is very likely because Miami doesn't run a system that requires the center to do very difficult things. But even if they got Tyler Linderbaum, something tells me things wouldn't change. They'd just have a better player in a spot where they didn't ask him to do very difficult things.

But at least with Charles Cross, you could be confident that guy will mirror and box edge players about as well as I've seen a guy coming out of college, and I don't care what system you run, that translates in the NFL. It might be some time before you get enough meat on Cross's bones to have him realize his full potential, but you'd be getting a competent player in the meantime, at a spot where you currently have gross incompetence.

Were you able to see Charles Cross vs Arkansas and Tre Williams yet

 

[ckparrothead]

Were you able to see Charles Cross vs Arkansas and Tre Williams yet

Not yet. I've been trying to get it.

 

[ckparrothead]

Ah ok I see now.

First off I'm thoroughly impressed with Tre Williams, who I've never really looked at before. I don't know if he just got jazzed up for this game or what but his total array was superb.

Second, I thought Williams exposed Charles Cross for how anxious and tentative he can be when given space. He's so good with his hand placement and boxing, but if the pass rusher keeps air between them as he gets deeper and deeper into his rush, I think you can see that Cross gets more and more nervous and tentative. Rather than timing his punch, Cross likes to hold his hands out, and that I think makes him susceptible to what Williams was doing to him.

But this was a really nice battle. There was an end zone view of a play I particularly liked where Tre Williams went into a deeper rush and Charles Cross went into his kick slide with his hands out like usual, but at some point Cross put his arms down before pulling them back up and engaging and trying to wash Williams out deep. When you look at it, he put his arms down because Williams was about to chop Cross's hands. So Cross gave him nothing to chop, then put his hands back up on his own time, and re-engage. This frustrated Williams, but he was still able to bend the arc and come very close to the QB, who stepped up and completed the pass despite Williams buzzing his ear.

But then the very next play, after the near-miss and seeing how Will Rogers had stepped up just out of his reach, Tre Williams adjusted his rush by spinning at the bottom of it, retracing, coming back up to the spot where Will Rogers was once again stepping up into, and he got the sack. This was planned by Williams all along. He wasn't simply reacting to what Rogers was doing. He was predicting what Rogers was going to do. Just superb work by Williams.

But then in the second half, with Charles Cross having seen Tre Williams's bag of tricks, he played with much more confidence and decisiveness, and essentially shut Williams down. Or at least that's what it looked like was happening in the 3rd quarter. The video I saw had a gap where I wasn't able to see the last 6 minutes of the 3rd quarter or the first 10 minutes of the 4th quarter.

This was the battle I was hoping to see out of Charles Cross vs. DeMarvin Leal, or Charles Cross vs. Josh Paschall, but it's just not what happened. I mentioned before that it's odd but Cross seems to have more trouble with speed deep rush guys like a Tyree Johnson of Texas A&M but not necessarily the big explosively powerful dudes. I think that's where Tre Williams was able to reside during the game.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Well Tre Williams is somewhere in my 15-20 range among my Senior DE's - I have him around #16 right now. He's a very experienced 5th year Senior and has played a lot of games in the SEC throughout his career, so he certainly has a plan each and every week for whatever offensive tackle he's facing. He played for 4 years at Missouri before he transferred to Arkansas. Only problem is he's kinda trapped in noman's land there somewhere between a DE and an outside linebacker. He's not athletic enough or fast enough to really flourish as an OLB - not big enough to really hold up as a full time DE at the next level. Although I believe he can play for a while in the NFL as a nickel or sub rusher. Backup type player in the right scheme.

I feel like your analysis lines up with what I saw for the most part. Williams made some plays against Cross in the first half of that game, but Cross adjusted. We'll get to see him try to take on Evan Neal in 2 weeks. He'll certainly need a plan for that matchup. The rest of the offensive line is where the trouble has been for Alabama. Particularly at RT where Chris Owens plays. He's not really even a tackle, he's just a 6th year backup Center type....but he knows the scheme so he plays. Program guy. Not many are particularly happy with that development this season.

I'd look for Barry Odom to move Williams to the other side some and try to get him matched up on Owens.