Fitzpatrick, Rosen Begin Qb Competition In Miami

The Goat

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You keep trumpeting this narrative as though being comparable to Darnold or Allen is some sort of positive. Both those QB’s played typical mediocre to poor rookie campaigns and both their organizations are still in full blown “Hope” mode. Both of those two QB’s may well remain average at best or bust completely. If Rosen showed Mayfield quality last year, you might have a point, but he didn’t.

You value Rosen based on his college resume and are choosing to completely ignore his rookie NFL campaign. No GM has done this (not should they), which is why he was so cheap. Whether you want to accept it or not, the FACT is that Rosen is indeed a second round pick now and must fight to prove he is worth even that second round value.
I'm not quite sure why you're being so combative about this.

If Rosen showed Mayfield quality last year, he wouldn't be a Miami Dolphin, and Kyler Murray wouldn't be a Cardinal.

And there is no narrative under which Josh Rosen was, is, or ever will be a second round pick. That's...because he was picked in the first round.
 

lurking

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I'm not quite sure why you're being so combative about this.

If Rosen showed Mayfield quality last year, he wouldn't be a Miami Dolphin, and Kyler Murray wouldn't be a Cardinal.

And there is no narrative under which Josh Rosen was, is, or ever will be a second round pick. That's...because he was picked in the first round.
I don’t get the second round pick narrative either.
Trade compensation doesn’t equate to draft position.
 

fin415

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This thread has gotten silly with all the back and forth.

* Rosen will forever be a first round pick for Arizona
* Rosen will be, for the remainder of this year a second round value, because that is what we paid for him. You could argue that it was a late second round pick, but then you have to factor back in the 5th.

Rosen's *value* (kinda the important part) to the team has yet to be written. We really won't know if he's a first, second, or seventh round value until we finish the year out and see what he can do in a (hopefully) competent system. This is the *only* value that matters going forward.

For those of you arguing that he could have been had cheaper, you might be right, but are likely wrong. It's like purchasing a house. The first person to bid either sets the price high enough that they get the house or they set the floor inviting others in to start bidding. That's why you see houses listed for under market all the time. It's to get enough people into the bidding with the expectation the seller will get to their number or better (obviously, it doesn't work all the time, but it's clearly a standard part of the process in the housing market).

If you are handy/house flipper, that fixer upper that requires 6 months of your time has a different value to you compared to the person who has to hire professionals to make those repairs at the ridiculous rates the pro's charge. So the smart move is to offer just enough more to make it unattractive for other bidders to even get into the game.

In Rosen's case, we offered our late 2nd -- which had additional value for exactly 10 minutes represented by the fact that the pick was on the clock. After that, who knows -- Arizona might have decided the value passed their floor and would hold him until someone got hurt late into the pre-season. Also, once the trade value hit a 3rd, more teams would have likely come into the trade process and then we *are* bidding.
 

The Goat

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This thread has gotten silly with all the back and forth.

* Rosen will forever be a first round pick for Arizona
* Rosen will be, for the remainder of this year a second round value, because that is what we paid for him. You could argue that it was a late second round pick, but then you have to factor back in the 5th.

Rosen's *value* (kinda the important part) to the team has yet to be written. We really won't know if he's a first, second, or seventh round value until we finish the year out and see what he can do in a (hopefully) competent system. This is the *only* value that matters going forward.

For those of you arguing that he could have been had cheaper, you might be right, but are likely wrong. It's like purchasing a house. The first person to bid either sets the price high enough that they get the house or they set the floor inviting others in to start bidding. That's why you see houses listed for under market all the time. It's to get enough people into the bidding with the expectation the seller will get to their number or better (obviously, it doesn't work all the time, but it's clearly a standard part of the process in the housing market).

If you are handy/house flipper, that fixer upper that requires 6 months of your time has a different value to you compared to the person who has to hire professionals to make those repairs at the ridiculous rates the pro's charge. So the smart move is to offer just enough more to make it unattractive for other bidders to even get into the game.

In Rosen's case, we offered our late 2nd -- which had additional value for exactly 10 minutes represented by the fact that the pick was on the clock. After that, who knows -- Arizona might have decided the value passed their floor and would hold him until someone got hurt late into the pre-season. Also, once the trade value hit a 3rd, more teams would have likely come into the trade process and then we *are* bidding.
True story: A guy I knew fairly well in the mid 2000s made a ridiculous sum of money doing nothing but flipping houses while hiring cheap labor to renovate them...all the while shorting the housing market with about half of his profits.
 

fansinceGWilson

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This thread has gotten silly with all the back and forth.

* Rosen will forever be a first round pick for Arizona
* Rosen will be, for the remainder of this year a second round value, because that is what we paid for him. You could argue that it was a late second round pick, but then you have to factor back in the 5th.

Rosen's *value* (kinda the important part) to the team has yet to be written. We really won't know if he's a first, second, or seventh round value until we finish the year out and see what he can do in a (hopefully) competent system. This is the *only* value that matters going forward.

For those of you arguing that he could have been had cheaper, you might be right, but are likely wrong. It's like purchasing a house. The first person to bid either sets the price high enough that they get the house or they set the floor inviting others in to start bidding. That's why you see houses listed for under market all the time. It's to get enough people into the bidding with the expectation the seller will get to their number or better (obviously, it doesn't work all the time, but it's clearly a standard part of the process in the housing market).

If you are handy/house flipper, that fixer upper that requires 6 months of your time has a different value to you compared to the person who has to hire professionals to make those repairs at the ridiculous rates the pro's charge. So the smart move is to offer just enough more to make it unattractive for other bidders to even get into the game.

In Rosen's case, we offered our late 2nd -- which had additional value for exactly 10 minutes represented by the fact that the pick was on the clock. After that, who knows -- Arizona might have decided the value passed their floor and would hold him until someone got hurt late into the pre-season. Also, once the trade value hit a 3rd, more teams would have likely come into the trade process and then we *are* bidding.
Left out of this discussion is option 2. At some point AZ would have decided 'if that's all we can get, we'll keep him as backup.' Would they have taken a 3rd? Who knows. I doubt they'd have taken a 4th.
 

39wildman

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Left out of this discussion is option 2. At some point AZ would have decided 'if that's all we can get, we'll keep him as backup.' Would they have taken a 3rd? Who knows. I doubt they'd have taken a 4th.
if Rosen didn't show up for camp. they would of taking what they can. Ari got luck to get second. but N.O deals is what made every thing smooth. We need young qb for future. just hope everything work out. Rosen should be better than last yr.
 

Awsi Dooger

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Left out of this discussion is option 2. At some point AZ would have decided 'if that's all we can get, we'll keep him as backup.' Would they have taken a 3rd? Who knows. I doubt they'd have taken a 4th.
Another thing that gets left out is that veteran players lose value during the draft process, solely due to teams prioritizing their draft picks so much. The teams have devoted all year to scouting these guys, and now they only have a handful of opportunities to select from them. And the opportunity is smack in front of them. The landscape has settled. They have an idea of which guys they covet might have slipped to the point they'll be available at a spot previously unthinkable a month or two ago.

It is all a very natural situational influence. As soon as the draft is gone and it's 12 months before the next one, those faraway draft picks aren't quite as prized or clutched. Rosen's value would go up, not down.
 

fansinceGWilson

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Another thing that gets left out is that veteran players lose value during the draft process, solely due to teams prioritizing their draft picks so much. The teams have devoted all year to scouting these guys, and now they only have a handful of opportunities to select from them. And the opportunity is smack in front of them. The landscape has settled. They have an idea of which guys they covet might have slipped to the point they'll be available at a spot previously unthinkable a month or two ago.

It is all a very natural situational influence. As soon as the draft is gone and it's 12 months before the next one, those faraway draft picks aren't quite as prized or clutched. Rosen's value would go up, not down.
Up for AZ or up for the other team?
 
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