Fitzpatrick

Kamelion4291

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You might want to reconsider your opinion on Rosen.

Didn't he have 2 coaches and a change in offensive coordinators in one year with the Cardinals. That meant he was under 2 or even three different systems in his first year. Murray is still in his first system.

If you are willing to acknowledge that a major change in how he was to do things would have accounted for a significantly slower start, then isn't it reasonable to acknowledge that Murray might have had the same difficulties in a similar situation.

How do you account for the effect of all those different systems being thrown at Rosen in one year?

I'm not even adding that there was a draft since Rosen was there that may have improved the offensive line in some ways.
Kyler Murray's second game he had a QB rating higher than Rosen has ever had. By Game 6 he had a 27/37 73% 340 yards 3 TD 0 INT 128 QB rating game. It doesn't take a million years to learn a system like it does for Rosen.

As for the "improved" offensive line, Kyler Murray is the most sacked quarterback in the league. They haven't improved anything and to imply that they have is just more specious excuses being thrown Rosen's way.

When does it become his fault that he sucks? Year 3? He's been in this one system for 7+ months now and can't get on the field over a journeyman veteran QB.

I'm not going to be wrong about him.
 

Ray R

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Kyler Murray's second game he had a QB rating higher than Rosen has ever had. By Game 6 he had a 27/37 73% 340 yards 3 TD 0 INT 128 QB rating game. It doesn't take a million years to learn a system like it does for Rosen.

As for the "improved" offensive line, Kyler Murray is the most sacked quarterback in the league. They haven't improved anything and to imply that they have is just more specious excuses being thrown Rosen's way.

When does it become his fault that he sucks? Year 3? He's been in this one system for 7+ months now and can't get on the field over a journeyman veteran QB.

I'm not going to be wrong about him.
I can't find the part where you evaluated the effect on a QB of having to go through 2 to 3 systems in one year.
 

Kamelion4291

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I can't find the part where you evaluated the effect on a QB of having to go through 2 to 3 systems in one year.
The part where Kyler Murray was better learning his first system in the same time Rosen had to learn his. It's not like Game 1 they switched coordinators.

Or... you know... the part where Rosen has had 7 months to learn this one and can't.
 

fansinceGWilson

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Fitzpatrick is playing like a top 10 QB this year. Something we havent seen since Pennington. He may have 3-5 years left in him. If we provide him with a young solid defense and an average OL, this offense could be very interesting the next couple of years. Also we can have the luxury of drafting a young QB and let him and/or Rosen learn on the sideline.
My problem is RFxs HD. Every game I fear the bad RF will show up. Particularly Sunday after a killer game. Tangentially, I worry about a letdown after the PHIL game for the whole team
 

Ray R

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The part where Kyler Murray was better learning his first system in the same time Rosen had to learn his. It's not like Game 1 they switched coordinators.

Or... you know... the part where Rosen has had 7 months to learn this one and can't.
True, but that first game for Rosen was with a coach that was dropped in the middle of the year. He must not have been too good. Game one for Murray was with their newest coach:
1) He replaced Rosen's first coach and
2) He became Rosen's second coach.

That leads me to 2 questions,
1) Was the first coach that Rosen had better or worse then the second coach he had and Murray now has?
2) Did the second coach Rosen had and Murray now has learn something about teaching his system with Rosen that he was able to apply to Murray?

I think the answer to which coach was better is that the current coach was better, but time will tell.
I do not know if the new coach was able to take his experience with Rosen and use it to be more effective with Murray, but it is a reasonable question to consider.

O-lines change with each season, but so do competitors defenses. The best o-lines remain effective while the worst o-lines remain in-effective. I feel the Cardinals current O-line is a little better then last year. As to the number of sacks on a QB, how much of it is the O-line and how much of it is the defense and how much is it due to the level of risks a QB takes? It seems to me they all come into play and are significant contributors to the number of sacks a QB gets.

The only thing I feel sure of is that this years Cardinals faced an easier schedule (SOS) then last year due to their poor record from last year. I'm sure this figures into the number of sacks a QB takes and suspect it would result in a lower number of sacks, but have no idea how to prove it.
 

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The NFL these days is not like the NFL of yesteryear. You don't need that elite LT guarding your QB's blind side because defenses won't bash their head into a wall and keep sending their best pass rusher at the same guy over and over like they did before. You have a really good left tackle? Ok great, I'll line my best pass rusher up on the other side, stand him up in the middle, send him on stunts etc. That LT just stands there wasting the $$$ you paid him because I'd MUCH rather have a line comprised of 5 "good" players than have an elite LT and an average or below average spot elsewhere on the line.

How's Tunsil doing over there in Houston? Want to know what Watson's sack rate % is? 8.3%. Want to know what Fitzpatrick's sack rate % is? 8.6%. Does that look like it's worth two 1st rounders and a 2nd to you? I get that there are more variables than that, but Tunsil is about to get paid over $20 mil a year to help a line that is barely better than ours. It isn't worth overloading draft value and salary cap space into one guy anymore and thank God that the front office realized that before it was too late.

As for Rosen, Kyler Murray is playing on the same awful team that Rosen sunk into the ground last season. He's the most sacked quarterback in the league, and yet he still manages to put up some damn good games. I'm tired of hearing excuses for Rosen because no matter who you have around you, you can either do it or you can't and that has always been the case in the history of the league. We're hoping to find a franchise QB, remember? If you need a fully functional offense surrounding the QB for him to actually break 90 QB rating in a game, that by definition isn't franchise, is it?

tldr version: Elite LTs are a dying breed and Rosen is awful and always has been, even in college.
You bringing up sack rate on a team QB'd by Deshaun Watson makes me think you haven't watched him play once in is NFL career. His sack rate is always going to be high. Why? Because despite his ability to wiggle out of sacks, he also causes a lot of sacks by taking all the time he has in the pocket and then some trying to make plays. That's just his style.

I don't care if elite LT play is in our not. Competent line play is. We will probably have the lowest YPC over a full season in modern NFL history. Our pass blocking hasn't been much better, but Fitz is slinging the ball so quickly that he does what few QBs could do. We were a below average line with Tunsil. Without him, we are historically bad.

Historically bad! The numbers don't lie!

So let's stop taking out personal grudges against a young QB. We're going to spend as much trying to replace Tunsil as we got in trade for him in the long run. Book it. And I don't think that's worth it.

As for Kyler Murray, he plays in a QB friendly offense that manufactures easy throws on most plays. I'll admit he's done nice things. He's also got the same amount of wins as Rosen had last year, in just one less start. That's because that QB friendly offense which allows for high completion percentage and lower turnover percentage by not demanding many difficult throws doesn't actually amount to much more than prettier QB numbers. Rosen was playing in a vertically oriented offense behind a line that couldn't block and a staff that was incompetent. It's not a fair comparison.
 

Kamelion4291

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You bringing up sack rate on a team QB'd by Deshaun Watson makes me think you haven't watched him play once in is NFL career. His sack rate is always going to be high. Why? Because despite his ability to wiggle out of sacks, he also causes a lot of sacks by taking all the time he has in the pocket and then some trying to make plays. That's just his style.

I don't care if elite LT play is in our not. Competent line play is. We will probably have the lowest YPC over a full season in modern NFL history. Our pass blocking hasn't been much better, but Fitz is slinging the ball so quickly that he does what few QBs could do. We were a below average line with Tunsil. Without him, we are historically bad.

Historically bad! The numbers don't lie!

So let's stop taking out personal grudges against a young QB. We're going to spend as much trying to replace Tunsil as we got in trade for him in the long run. Book it. And I don't think that's worth it.

As for Kyler Murray, he plays in a QB friendly offense that manufactures easy throws on most plays. I'll admit he's done nice things. He's also got the same amount of wins as Rosen had last year, in just one less start. That's because that QB friendly offense which allows for high completion percentage and lower turnover percentage by not demanding many difficult throws doesn't actually amount to much more than prettier QB numbers. Rosen was playing in a vertically oriented offense behind a line that couldn't block and a staff that was incompetent. It's not a fair comparison.
I'm glad you brought up that a QB could be responsible for a lot of sacks because of the way they play... in a discussion about Josh effing Rosen. Seems like you're talking out of only one side of your mouth on that one, eh? But yeah, let's ignore that Rosen was sacked constantly in college, constantly in Arizona, and constantly here. Really unlucky, that guy is, amirite? What a coincidence! It's not as if his inability to read defenses and you know... actually play quarterback... could maybe contribute to that a little bit. Remember Ryan Tannehill? Remember how for seven years people like you blamed the poor guy's offensive line for all the sacks he took? Remember how everyone came to the realization that maybe he was a large part of the problem (except for you, I guess)? I guess Tennessee's line is worse than ours ever was, given that Tannehill is sitting pretty at a 12% sack rate, highest of his career. Never the QB's fault (unless you're talking about Watson lol).

But yeah, let's go back to talk about our line for a second. We're going to revert to blaming the line for absolutely everything for a second since you love that. Poor Rosen, stuck behind a terrible offensive line that gets him sacked a lot. And it's "historically" bad! Why? Because we're going to run for less yards than anybody else ever. You know what else matters? Oh, that's right, tight ends and running backs in that apparently complicated equation since you never mentioned those at all. We're starting a TE that can't really block because we don't have anybody better than actually can. And RB... let's talk about running back for a second. If it's the line's fault for our "historically bad" run blocking, then why did Mark Walton manage to average 3.8 yards per carry, but Ballage only averaged 1.8 running behind the same line? I guess Ballage is just as unlucky as Rosen is! Sure is a shame we have all this bad "luck" on our team! Clearly it's the line's fault that we're going to rush for the fewest yards ever and not the difference in running backs.

And finally, the specious reasoning that Kyler Murray plays in a "QB friendly offense" that doesn't demand many difficult throws, while Josh Rosen was forced to air it out...

Well, Rosen in Arizona last year averaged 5.8 yards per pass attempt and 10.5 yards per completion. Kyler Murray this year averages 6.7 yards per pass attempt and 10.5 yards per completion..

But I'll throw you a bone and mention that Murray averages 7.2 yards per target in the air and last year Rosen averaged 8.3 so his depth was slightly longer. He also sucked so much at his job that the 1 yard difference contributed to an offense that averaged 14.1 points a game, worst in the league, while Murray manages to average 21.2 which is 20th. Lucky Murray... being coached by a guy who was just fired for being terrible at his COLLEGE job.

I'm not really sure why I'm bothering here. It's really, really easy for the pro Rosen, "let's give him 42 years to improve" crowd to be like, "Hey! Arizona had a different equipment manager this year! Clearly it's a different team for Kyler Murray so it can't be used as a comparison to how Rosen did!" Throw a million stats out there showing how garbage he is and you guys show up like clockwork with your specious arguments that are essentially "I'm right, prove that I'm not" that are just dripping with laziness. I'm sure if someone bothered they could search this site for hundreds of the same type of posts verbatim about Chad Henne.
 

Sirspud

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I'm not really sure why I'm bothering here. It's really, really easy for the pro Rosen, "let's give him 42 years to improve" crowd to be like, "Hey! Arizona had a different equipment manager this year! Clearly it's a different team for Kyler Murray so it can't be used as a comparison to how Rosen did!" Throw a million stats out there showing how garbage he is and you guys show up like clockwork with your specious arguments that are essentially "I'm right, prove that I'm not" that are just dripping with laziness. I'm sure if someone bothered they could search this site for hundreds of the same type of posts verbatim about Chad Henne.
But it is different. Drastically. This is an offense that really hasn't been used in the NFL that Murray is running.
 

39wildman

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What should dolphins do w Fitzpatrick next yr?? He is playing great but he is not helping dolphins in long run.
 

Birdmond

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What should dolphins do w Fitzpatrick next yr?? He is playing great but he is not helping dolphins in long run.
I have no issues with Fitz starting next season preferably with Tua on the bench getting healthy.
 

39wildman

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I have no issues with Fitz starting next season preferably with Tua on the bench getting healthy.
I hope we don't draft Tua. It too risky. Tua need go to team w Ol. Other wise I dont see how he is going survive in Miami.
 
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