Flawed Logic Of Tanking

WSE

Starter
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
2,245
Reaction score
99
We need to do one of two things

1. Outright tank for a high pick

Or

2. Collect draft picks to get draft capital to trade up. This will also necessary involve some roster purging.

There is no other choice. We need to go all in on one of these routes.
 

Swollcolb

Scout Team
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
229
Reaction score
172
I think this year is more about straightening out our cap situation more than anything else. We will be paying a lot of players millions of dollars to not be on our team. So we won’t be players in FA to make big improvements or retain guys like JJ. As a result we’re taking a mediocre team and most likely getting a little worse while teams in our division especially are spending big to improve talent around their young QBs. Which as a result will most likely translate into more losses and less wins and a higher pick
 

TedSlimmJr

Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
11,567
Reaction score
4,410
Clemson didn't dominate him. He still played well. Very well actually.

Tua and Lawrence aren't in the same class so the probably wont be in the same draft.

OP clamors for Drew Lock. Domination is what happened when Lock faced Alabama.

Or Georgia.

Or LSU.

Or South Carolina.

Or Kentucky.

Or Texas.

Or Purdue.
 

SF Dolphin Fan

Seasoned Veteran
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
8,544
Reaction score
2,067
It's a bit of a slippery slope for sure. You could end up digging a deep hole that's even harder to escape than mediocrity.

But agree Miami has to find that quarterback and build a line that can protect him.
 

DolfanDuBbZ~

Avoid the 'Noid
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
1,167
I know a lot of us here are tired of seeing the Dolphins lose. Some of us here weren't even here for the glory days, and all we have known our entire Miami Dolphins life is losing. So I can see why some of your reek of desperation and are clamoring for us to tank the season.

My only issue with tanking is that it does not work. Logically speaking, you cannot get better by purposefully being worse, for several reasons.

People say that the colt's tank job worked... Umm no it didn't. We went to the playoffs about the same amount of time as they have in the same time span. Try again. The Rams did not tank, they have made great off season moves since Jeff Fischer left, that is why they went to the Superbowl.

Only an idiot would see that our front office is inept at drafting and free agency and then think that the solution is to be worse.

I wonder if that was what Brian Flores learned from Bill Belichik. One day in New England, Bill pulled Brian aside and said "if you want to be great, you have to try to lose as much and as hard as you can, and then the next year you will win the Superbowl."

You people sound like women aged 30 trying to have a baby. You reek of desperation are only going to get a rude awakening.

As a coach, how can you tell your players to lose, how do you coach them properly if you want them to lose? How do you expect them to have confidence in you if all you do is lose? You people who want the Dolphins to tank aren't real fans of the Miami Dolphins, you are fans of winning, and you don't even know how to do it correctly.

And the #1 FACT why tanking doesn't work is because if it did, the Browns would have won 3 Superbowls in this decade by now.

How about you ask that the team draft well and sign good free agents, while having a decent set of coaches to bring out a better quality in players than what we have seen? Nope! "Let's ****ing lose on purpose by putting a ****tier product on the field." Gtfoh with that loser mentality.

So let's keep going 6-10/9-7 and keep looking for that ceiling, or something.

You put alot of false premises and narratives in your rant.

And yes the Colts going to AFC Championship games are only things some of us older folks can speak of remembering the Phins doing at some point in the past 30 years.
 

Bopkin02

Seasoned Veteran
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Messages
1,251
Reaction score
299
Age
51
Location
East Petersburg, PA
I don't think the players and coaches and Front office are outright trying to tank, meaning lose on purpose. Like several posters said, we need to get our cap fixed. We need to dump unproductive players who make too much. We need to start building a younger team with replacements for lost free agents ready to go, replacements attained in the draft. We need to let free agents walk who aren't worth ridiculous contracts(see: JaJuan James). A result of this process will be some losing; but the bullet needs to be bitten. It probably should have been bitten around 2013-14. But we kept scotch taping a mediocre product together and now we have a mess to un-do. I think anyone who thinks we are intentionally going to try to lose to get a high draft pick is probably mis-interpreting what the goal is. Losses will be there, but they will not be intentionally acquired.
 

DolfanDuBbZ~

Avoid the 'Noid
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
1,167
To me, it’s not luck. It’s asset management.

You could tank for one (Jets, Browns and Colts).

You can trade up for one (Houston, KC, Rams, Eagles)

You need to go all in to get your guy. Or you will be in an inescapable rut. IE the Dolphins.

Yes KC moved up. But they were beneficiaries of a league that undervalued Mahomes.
 

ckparrothead

Premium Member
Joined
May 24, 2002
Messages
51,259
Reaction score
5,119
Location
Tampa, FL
Flawed logic is an apt way to talk about this concept.

The fans get to live in a perfect world where logic and reality don't matter. They get to demand that the Dolphins somehow go 2-14 while also demanding that they 1) hire great coaches, 2) keep and acquire great players, and 3) don't throw games on purpose.

It's like they want to just wave a magic want at ONE position, the QB position, and that will magically present you with a 2-14 record, giving you the #1 overall pick, and Tua Tagovailoa. All you've got to do is start Luke Falk or Jake Rudock, amirite? I mean, let's forget that Brock Osweiler won 2 out of 5 games with this roster last year, with (we believe, hence they were fired) even worse coaching.

Fact of the matter is the Dolphins already screwed up any legit shot they had of engaging this weird witting/unwitting tank job when they FIRED Adam Gase. And then they made it worse when they hired the play caller behind the best defensive performance in Super Bowl history and surrounded him with a bunch of other coaches with championship pedigrees. And they continue to screw it up by showing a commitment to keeping excellent players like Laremy Tunsil and Xavien Howard, attempting to acquire more good players like Trey Flowers, and intending to go on drafting good players like Minkah Fitzpatrick.

The tank is already off and you all just don't realize it.

If Adam Gase had stayed on another year, the tank would've been possible. Then the team would've been in that terrible situation where frustrations are at their peak, there's finger-pointing behind the scenes, a locker room about to go bye-bye, etc. Think back to 2004 when Dave Wannstedt started off 1-8, or 2011 when Tony Sparano started off 0-7, or 2015 when Joe Philbin started off 1-3. That's the sort of stage in the story arc you need to be at if you want to tank for real.

Otherwise you're just hoping you accidentally hired the next Cam Cameron. And I don't think anyone thinks pleasantly on that possibility, considering Brian Flores was just given a 5 year fully guaranteed deal. Oh and I bet if there were any tankers in that 2007 off season they'd have been MIGHTY pissed off at signing Trent Green, who would've been deemed, "just good enough to be 7-9 to 9-7".

Here's reality. Yes you need a QB. No you don't have to tank to do it.

Let's not pretend the Dolphins haven't had valid chances at STUD quarterbacks over the years.

#1. They were picking #2 overall in 2005 and decided it wasn't the right time in the rebuilding process to take a QB, thus they passed on the QB Aaron Rodgers everyone seemed to assume was going Top 5 and were completely unprepared to be available when they picked.

#2. They also had a chance to grab Drew Brees one year later.

#3. They could've drafted Matt Ryan in 2008, but they also decided THAT was not the point in the rebuild when they want to use high resources on a QB.

#4. They could've drafted Russell Wilson in 2012.

#5. I don't know if there are any Derek Carr fans out there but not only was he available in 2014, the head coach who had just taken Tannehill in 2012 wanted him in that draft.

#6. They could've drafted Jimmy Garoppolo that year 2014, if you think he's a good QB.

#7. They could've traded up for Patrick Mahomes in 2017.

#8. They could've traded up for DeShaun Watson in 2017.

#9. For as many people that still love Josh Rosen, he was ABSOLUTELY within reach in 2018.

#10. So was Lamar Jackson in 2018, for those people who are fans of his.

Miami has had their chances at quarterbacks and they've passed on them. They've blown it when they were bad enough to be picking in the top two, and they've blown it when they've been picking in the middle of the round.

The Kansas City Chiefs got Patrick Mahomes off a 12-4 record. The Houston Texans got DeShaun Watson fresh off a 9-7 playoff run. The Green Bay Packers got Aaron Rodgers fresh off a 10-6 season. The Seattle Seahawks got Russell Wilson, the Philadelphia Eagles got Carson Wentz, and the Pittsburgh Steelers got Ben Roethlisberger, all of them fresh off that dreaded 7-9 or 6-10 record everyone seems to be so fearful about.

Hell the Miami Dolphins got Dan Marino fresh off a Super Bowl appearance.

This idea that doing anything (especially at the QB position) that "risks" making you "too good" is just doing the same thing over and over again is a total farse. Doing the same thing over and over again would be not acquiring a quarterback even when you had a chance at a good one, and Miami has had those chances.

It's not about managing to win the 1-15 or 2-14 lottery and getting that #1 pick. Great if it happens, although it means you've got a sh-t coach and you'd better toss him immediately. But as Dave Hyde has said, if you're not good enough to get a good QB without that Tank season, then you're not good enough to surround and coach him with championship caliber players and coaches anyway.
 

JamesBW43

You're standing on my neck
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Messages
5,460
Reaction score
634
I know a lot of us here are tired of seeing the Dolphins lose. Some of us here weren't even here for the glory days, and all we have known our entire Miami Dolphins life is losing. So I can see why some of your reek of desperation and are clamoring for us to tank the season.

My only issue with tanking is that it does not work. Logically speaking, you cannot get better by purposefully being worse, for several reasons.

People say that the colt's tank job worked... Umm no it didn't. We went to the playoffs about the same amount of time as they have in the same time span. Try again. The Rams did not tank, they have made great off season moves since Jeff Fischer left, that is why they went to the Superbowl.

Only an idiot would see that our front office is inept at drafting and free agency and then think that the solution is to be worse.

I wonder if that was what Brian Flores learned from Bill Belichik. One day in New England, Bill pulled Brian aside and said "if you want to be great, you have to try to lose as much and as hard as you can, and then the next year you will win the Superbowl."

You people sound like women aged 30 trying to have a baby. You reek of desperation are only going to get a rude awakening.

As a coach, how can you tell your players to lose, how do you coach them properly if you want them to lose? How do you expect them to have confidence in you if all you do is lose? You people who want the Dolphins to tank aren't real fans of the Miami Dolphins, you are fans of winning, and you don't even know how to do it correctly.

And the #1 FACT why tanking doesn't work is because if it did, the Browns would have won 3 Superbowls in this decade by now.

How about you ask that the team draft well and sign good free agents, while having a decent set of coaches to bring out a better quality in players than what we have seen? Nope! "Let's ****ing lose on purpose by putting a ****tier product on the field." Gtfoh with that loser mentality.
To me, tanking doesn't mean that you coach the players to lose but rather that you do not go out and pay significant money for mediocre players in a desperate attempt to add one or two more wins. Instead you invest in picks and young guys with potential, knowing that doing so will likely yield an even weaker team in the current year, but with the hope of development and better draft picks that will yield better results 2-3 years down the road than if you constantly overpay aging vets to keep trying to get those extra 1-2 wins.
 

fansinceGWilson

Finheaven VIP
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
5,069
Reaction score
2,614
I know a lot of us here are tired of seeing the Dolphins lose. Some of us here weren't even here for the glory days, and all we have known our entire Miami Dolphins life is losing. So I can see why some of your reek of desperation and are clamoring for us to tank the season.

My only issue with tanking is that it does not work. Logically speaking, you cannot get better by purposefully being worse, for several reasons.

People say that the colt's tank job worked... Umm no it didn't. We went to the playoffs about the same amount of time as they have in the same time span. Try again. The Rams did not tank, they have made great off season moves since Jeff Fischer left, that is why they went to the Superbowl.

Only an idiot would see that our front office is inept at drafting and free agency and then think that the solution is to be worse.

I wonder if that was what Brian Flores learned from Bill Belichik. One day in New England, Bill pulled Brian aside and said "if you want to be great, you have to try to lose as much and as hard as you can, and then the next year you will win the Superbowl."

You people sound like women aged 30 trying to have a baby. You reek of desperation are only going to get a rude awakening.

As a coach, how can you tell your players to lose, how do you coach them properly if you want them to lose? How do you expect them to have confidence in you if all you do is lose? You people who want the Dolphins to tank aren't real fans of the Miami Dolphins, you are fans of winning, and you don't even know how to do it correctly.

And the #1 FACT why tanking doesn't work is because if it did, the Browns would have won 3 Superbowls in this decade by now.

How about you ask that the team draft well and sign good free agents, while having a decent set of coaches to bring out a better quality in players than what we have seen? Nope! "Let's ****ing lose on purpose by putting a ****tier product on the field." Gtfoh with that loser mentality.
I'll not beat the tanking dead horse, except to say the debate is over building a roster that can win 2 games vs a roster that can win 6. Both are 'tanking.' One is just more extreme than the other.

My main problems with tanking . . .
no one knows if Flores wants to win 2 games or as many as possible,
Tanking and failing (winning, say, five) fails to get the top QB and wastes a year,
there is NO way Miami is going to tank 2 years and hope to get a top QB in '21. Any attempt to defend that is delusional.

I disagree with the logic a HC will tell his team to lose. Just build a weak roster and let the wins/loses take care of themselves.

I agree I don't see tanking . . . yet. Fans still need to wait for evidence. Is Miami looking for a Tannehill level or better QB? Who will be the starting QB? which, if any, quality FAs will be signed? All releases so far have been overpriced/underperforming players or those who's absence won't make a significant difference. I can't name one released player who could cost Miami one win in '19. OTOH, *IF* Flores and company are the real deal, I can see them gaining 1-2 wins over Gase and circus.
 

Phinatic8u

Please football gods, grace us Tua or Trevor
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
18,328
Reaction score
5,340
Location
South Carolinia
Miami is going to have to trade up for a qb they want.

Sometimes you have to do that to get that guy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WSE
Top Bottom