Flawed Logic Of Tanking

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by illscriptures, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. WSE

    WSE Starter

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    We need to do one of two things

    1. Outright tank for a high pick

    Or

    2. Collect draft picks to get draft capital to trade up. This will also necessary involve some roster purging.

    There is no other choice. We need to go all in on one of these routes.
     
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  2. Swollcolb

    Swollcolb Well-Known Member

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    I think this year is more about straightening out our cap situation more than anything else. We will be paying a lot of players millions of dollars to not be on our team. So we won’t be players in FA to make big improvements or retain guys like JJ. As a result we’re taking a mediocre team and most likely getting a little worse while teams in our division especially are spending big to improve talent around their young QBs. Which as a result will most likely translate into more losses and less wins and a higher pick
     
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  3. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    OP clamors for Drew Lock. Domination is what happened when Lock faced Alabama.

    Or Georgia.

    Or LSU.

    Or South Carolina.

    Or Kentucky.

    Or Texas.

    Or Purdue.
     
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  4. The Goat

    The Goat Escape Goat Finheaven VIP

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    Interestingly, everything I ever thought about you as a poster was summed up in this gem of a sentence pair.
     
  5. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    It's a bit of a slippery slope for sure. You could end up digging a deep hole that's even harder to escape than mediocrity.

    But agree Miami has to find that quarterback and build a line that can protect him.
     
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  6. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid Donator

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    So let's keep going 6-10/9-7 and keep looking for that ceiling, or something.

    You put alot of false premises and narratives in your rant.

    And yes the Colts going to AFC Championship games are only things some of us older folks can speak of remembering the Phins doing at some point in the past 30 years.
     
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  7. Dogbone34

    Dogbone34 cowboy surfer

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    every loss is a win 2019
     
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  8. Bopkin02

    Bopkin02 Seasoned Veteran

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    I don't think the players and coaches and Front office are outright trying to tank, meaning lose on purpose. Like several posters said, we need to get our cap fixed. We need to dump unproductive players who make too much. We need to start building a younger team with replacements for lost free agents ready to go, replacements attained in the draft. We need to let free agents walk who aren't worth ridiculous contracts(see: JaJuan James). A result of this process will be some losing; but the bullet needs to be bitten. It probably should have been bitten around 2013-14. But we kept scotch taping a mediocre product together and now we have a mess to un-do. I think anyone who thinks we are intentionally going to try to lose to get a high draft pick is probably mis-interpreting what the goal is. Losses will be there, but they will not be intentionally acquired.
     
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  9. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid Donator

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    Yes KC moved up. But they were beneficiaries of a league that undervalued Mahomes.
     
  10. 39wildman

    39wildman A True Fan

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    people don't understand Watson and Mahomes went to 2 playoff team.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Flawed logic is an apt way to talk about this concept.

    The fans get to live in a perfect world where logic and reality don't matter. They get to demand that the Dolphins somehow go 2-14 while also demanding that they 1) hire great coaches, 2) keep and acquire great players, and 3) don't throw games on purpose.

    It's like they want to just wave a magic want at ONE position, the QB position, and that will magically present you with a 2-14 record, giving you the #1 overall pick, and Tua Tagovailoa. All you've got to do is start Luke Falk or Jake Rudock, amirite? I mean, let's forget that Brock Osweiler won 2 out of 5 games with this roster last year, with (we believe, hence they were fired) even worse coaching.

    Fact of the matter is the Dolphins already screwed up any legit shot they had of engaging this weird witting/unwitting tank job when they FIRED Adam Gase. And then they made it worse when they hired the play caller behind the best defensive performance in Super Bowl history and surrounded him with a bunch of other coaches with championship pedigrees. And they continue to screw it up by showing a commitment to keeping excellent players like Laremy Tunsil and Xavien Howard, attempting to acquire more good players like Trey Flowers, and intending to go on drafting good players like Minkah Fitzpatrick.

    The tank is already off and you all just don't realize it.

    If Adam Gase had stayed on another year, the tank would've been possible. Then the team would've been in that terrible situation where frustrations are at their peak, there's finger-pointing behind the scenes, a locker room about to go bye-bye, etc. Think back to 2004 when Dave Wannstedt started off 1-8, or 2011 when Tony Sparano started off 0-7, or 2015 when Joe Philbin started off 1-3. That's the sort of stage in the story arc you need to be at if you want to tank for real.

    Otherwise you're just hoping you accidentally hired the next Cam Cameron. And I don't think anyone thinks pleasantly on that possibility, considering Brian Flores was just given a 5 year fully guaranteed deal. Oh and I bet if there were any tankers in that 2007 off season they'd have been MIGHTY pissed off at signing Trent Green, who would've been deemed, "just good enough to be 7-9 to 9-7".

    Here's reality. Yes you need a QB. No you don't have to tank to do it.

    Let's not pretend the Dolphins haven't had valid chances at STUD quarterbacks over the years.

    #1. They were picking #2 overall in 2005 and decided it wasn't the right time in the rebuilding process to take a QB, thus they passed on the QB Aaron Rodgers everyone seemed to assume was going Top 5 and were completely unprepared to be available when they picked.

    #2. They also had a chance to grab Drew Brees one year later.

    #3. They could've drafted Matt Ryan in 2008, but they also decided THAT was not the point in the rebuild when they want to use high resources on a QB.

    #4. They could've drafted Russell Wilson in 2012.

    #5. I don't know if there are any Derek Carr fans out there but not only was he available in 2014, the head coach who had just taken Tannehill in 2012 wanted him in that draft.

    #6. They could've drafted Jimmy Garoppolo that year 2014, if you think he's a good QB.

    #7. They could've traded up for Patrick Mahomes in 2017.

    #8. They could've traded up for DeShaun Watson in 2017.

    #9. For as many people that still love Josh Rosen, he was ABSOLUTELY within reach in 2018.

    #10. So was Lamar Jackson in 2018, for those people who are fans of his.

    Miami has had their chances at quarterbacks and they've passed on them. They've blown it when they were bad enough to be picking in the top two, and they've blown it when they've been picking in the middle of the round.

    The Kansas City Chiefs got Patrick Mahomes off a 12-4 record. The Houston Texans got DeShaun Watson fresh off a 9-7 playoff run. The Green Bay Packers got Aaron Rodgers fresh off a 10-6 season. The Seattle Seahawks got Russell Wilson, the Philadelphia Eagles got Carson Wentz, and the Pittsburgh Steelers got Ben Roethlisberger, all of them fresh off that dreaded 7-9 or 6-10 record everyone seems to be so fearful about.

    Hell the Miami Dolphins got Dan Marino fresh off a Super Bowl appearance.

    This idea that doing anything (especially at the QB position) that "risks" making you "too good" is just doing the same thing over and over again is a total farse. Doing the same thing over and over again would be not acquiring a quarterback even when you had a chance at a good one, and Miami has had those chances.

    It's not about managing to win the 1-15 or 2-14 lottery and getting that #1 pick. Great if it happens, although it means you've got a sh-t coach and you'd better toss him immediately. But as Dave Hyde has said, if you're not good enough to get a good QB without that Tank season, then you're not good enough to surround and coach him with championship caliber players and coaches anyway.
     
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  12. JamesBW43

    JamesBW43 You're standing on my neck Finheaven VIP

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    To me, tanking doesn't mean that you coach the players to lose but rather that you do not go out and pay significant money for mediocre players in a desperate attempt to add one or two more wins. Instead you invest in picks and young guys with potential, knowing that doing so will likely yield an even weaker team in the current year, but with the hope of development and better draft picks that will yield better results 2-3 years down the road than if you constantly overpay aging vets to keep trying to get those extra 1-2 wins.
     
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  13. fansinceGWilson

    fansinceGWilson FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I'll not beat the tanking dead horse, except to say the debate is over building a roster that can win 2 games vs a roster that can win 6. Both are 'tanking.' One is just more extreme than the other.

    My main problems with tanking . . .
    no one knows if Flores wants to win 2 games or as many as possible,
    Tanking and failing (winning, say, five) fails to get the top QB and wastes a year,
    there is NO way Miami is going to tank 2 years and hope to get a top QB in '21. Any attempt to defend that is delusional.

    I disagree with the logic a HC will tell his team to lose. Just build a weak roster and let the wins/loses take care of themselves.

    I agree I don't see tanking . . . yet. Fans still need to wait for evidence. Is Miami looking for a Tannehill level or better QB? Who will be the starting QB? which, if any, quality FAs will be signed? All releases so far have been overpriced/underperforming players or those who's absence won't make a significant difference. I can't name one released player who could cost Miami one win in '19. OTOH, *IF* Flores and company are the real deal, I can see them gaining 1-2 wins over Gase and circus.
     
  14. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Please football gods, grace us Tua or Trevor Finheaven VIP

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    I agree with CK.

    Miami isn't tanking, their just not blowing loads on FAs.
     
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  15. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Please football gods, grace us Tua or Trevor Finheaven VIP

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    Miami is going to have to trade up for a qb they want.

    Sometimes you have to do that to get that guy.
     
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