For once, I totally agree without Armando | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

For once, I totally agree without Armando

I really find it hard to understand how people don't get what is happening. Literally everyone but X is on the table. EVERYONE. They are rebuilding the entire team ground up. This will hopefully take max 3 years but it is most likely a 5 year process where you will even see them trade those draft picks for better picks in the following drafts.

This is going to require fans to have iron stomachs and honestly it will probably result in a 20% loss of the fanbase, and that is probably wishful thinking.

But it is needed.
 
sigh its like Armando and some of our fans think with 13 draft picks 120 plus million that magically we are gonna trot out the same team next season... I'll put it to you this way I expect by 2020 when we get tua most likely we will only have 4 starters from 2019.. Howard,Baker,Deiter,Fitzpatrick are the only starters we currently have i could see starting in 2020.

** Maybe 5 starters i really liked john jenkins since he was at georgia, the guy is a plug in the middle of the DT something we have been missing since solai..
Using the logic that the optimal way to start is with a lot of money and picks would basically say the fastest way to a Super Bowl is to be an expansion team. We know how that works out. There's a big difference between getting rid of commitments that don't make sense and stripping your roster like we have. Sucking for _____ , whomever that is for this draft, as a standalone strategy is drawing to an inside straight.

Now I see a kind of Carte Blanche approval to anything we do because it contributes to our tank. It's not a switch that is so easy to turn off.

Sorry, I don't like it.
 
If were not fighting our way thru the playoff's in 2021 and showing all kinds of promise our front office and coaching staff are probably gone.

It has to happen with draft picks and a select few FA, were not buying our way into the playoffs.

Unlikely to happen unless your willing to sell Tua and he is exactly the QB you need to do it with.

Lots of unanswered question and the negative flack has just started going to get ugly.
 
Honest question brother, because I have a great deal of respect for you, but I don't see the risk the same way, and I want to understand your point of view--How are we worse off tanking if that correct coach and GM were not available to us?

Assuming Adam Gase wasn't the answer, we needed a new coach. I did not see the correct coach available this past offseason. Our options were A) continue with Gase, B) hire Flores, C) hire another coach who is not the correct coach. Given those three choices, I do not see any of the three being the right answer and I do not see any of the three being a huge risk … only three bad choices that are temporarily between today's failure and tomorrow's success when we find that coach.

We got rid of the real GM too, Tannenbaum. We kept the best of the three from a talent evaluation standpoint, Grier, and added other well regarded talent evaluators like Reggie McKenzie. IMHO, that's a positive move. If we assume that the correct GM is not available that year, isn't that a net positive? My belief is that this was a decent move, even if Grier & Co. isn't the correct GM, because he was a solid choice of what was available then.

So the question becomes, how much worse off are we with stopgap GM and Coach solutions? My guess is that we are not really worse off unless we fail to hire the correct people when they do become available to us.

The other question becomes, how does tanking hurt us long-term when this GM and Coach are replaced with the correct GM and Coach? To me, it offers a clean slate with more talent.

Are you factoring in the potential loss of fans permanently if we stink up the joint too bad as we are today? Do you see this stench of dysfunctional Dolphins preventing the correct GM and Coach from coming here when they are available? Are you worried about the locker room when the new GM/Coach cleans house and gets rid of 95% of the guys we bring in via our tanking experiment? Is it the bad record we are welcoming in the short term? All good points, and I'm sure you have others, but are any of these things going to endure past the hiring of a new GM and Coach?

I guess I see this as an attempt to jump off the mediocrity treadmill we've been on for so long. We never quite have enough talent to get over the hump--and more importantly, as you've noted, we never had the right Coach. At least the tanking strategy will concentrate more talent on our roster, all things being equal. Hell, even the Barry Switzer led Dallas Cowboys was great for one year with the roster Jimmy Johnson built before he left. I would love to taste that kind of dominating team once again. But we've proven we can't build it through traditional patchwork rebuilding, so I'm game for trying to concentrate our resources via tanking. Help me understand why you see this as a big risk … if the alternative is decades of irrelevance through mediocrity … what's really at risk?
Thanks for asking and yes I am as frustrated as you are about our lack of sucess but my opinion is a bit different.
I believe we have the cart in front of the horse in this case.
Why I say that is because every coach but one since Shula was forced out has basically came in gutted the roster started over and in about 3 years or so when their plan and players didn't work out it was rinse and repeat. Ironically the coach pretty much disliked the most around here Dave W. didn't rebuild but took Jimmys Johnson defense added Ricky Williams and we had our best sucess since Shula. So lets say Dave W was a poor coach but the results show sucess where other more talented hires have failed.
IMO our path to sucess is finding the coach that take the leftovers before he got here and build from there.

Now here are my 2 fears of our current position one I have stated before.
First the tank for Tua carries the danger of the wrong coach staying here to long. Posters are already applying that logic to Florres tenure here that this year and next year. They are willing to accept loosing until year 3 and give him and his staff until 4 to see some real improvement. So say we get that great QB but his sucess on the field ends up with us hanging onto a poor coach to long.

Second is the opposite we use all this great draft capital we have built up recently Grier and Florres draft their guys we decide Flores and Grier are not who we need by year 3 and we bring in yet another coach who cleans house again.

Both senarios end up with a huge waste of resources.

Lets get to Flores. I personally liked the hire as my impression was he had the ability to relate to players. Grier I am/was unsure of in his ability to choose the talent and have soured on most recently after reading TedSlimms opinion on his Griers lack of talent. Flores situation has worsened imo when he showed the inability to convince Clowney to join the fins and now we have the Fitzpatrick thing going on which more alarming could infuence us having the opportunity to draft Tua next year.

I am still going to wait until game 8 to see what Flores can pull off but boy does he have a tiger by the tail.

In the meanwhile I will hope he is the right guy for the job but will hold onto my opinion that until we find that coach that can take your players and beat his players we have the wrong dude running the ship.
 
Thanks for asking and yes I am as frustrated as you are about our lack of sucess but my opinion is a bit different.
I believe we have the cart in front of the horse in this case.
Why I say that is because every coach but one since Shula was forced out has basically came in gutted the roster started over and in about 3 years or so when their plan and players didn't work out it was rinse and repeat. Ironically the coach pretty much disliked the most around here Dave W. didn't rebuild but took Jimmys Johnson defense added Ricky Williams and we had our best sucess since Shula. So lets say Dave W was a poor coach but the results show sucess where other more talented hires have failed.
IMO our path to sucess is finding the coach that take the leftovers before he got here and build from there.

Now here are my 2 fears of our current position one I have stated before.
First the tank for Tua carries the danger of the wrong coach staying here to long. Posters are already applying that logic to Florres tenure here that this year and next year. They are willing to accept loosing until year 3 and give him and his staff until 4 to see some real improvement. So say we get that great QB but his sucess on the field ends up with us hanging onto a poor coach to long.

Second is the opposite we use all this great draft capital we have built up recently Grier and Florres draft their guys we decide Flores and Grier are not who we need by year 3 and we bring in yet another coach who cleans house again.

Both senarios end up with a huge waste of resources.

Lets get to Flores. I personally liked the hire as my impression was he had the ability to relate to players. Grier I am/was unsure of in his ability to choose the talent and have soured on most recently after reading TedSlimms opinion on his Griers lack of talent. Flores situation has worsened imo when he showed the inability to convince Clowney to join the fins and now we have the Fitzpatrick thing going on which more alarming could infuence us having the opportunity to draft Tua next year.

I am still going to wait until game 8 to see what Flores can pull off but boy does he have a tiger by the tail.

In the meanwhile I will hope he is the right guy for the job but will hold onto my opinion that until we find that coach that can take your players and beat his players we have the wrong dude running the ship.
Thanks for explaining your viewpoint to me brother. I think I better understand where you're coming from now.

Ultimately, we need to find that next great coach. We hope Coach Flo is it, but regardless, that's what we need to find. Then we need to surround him with talent with which to work. Until then, we're not going to be that successful. I had hope when Adam Gase came in, far more hope than anyone since Jimmy Johnson honestly. But, it didn't work out. Fingers crossed it is Coach Flo. If not, the search will continue.
 
Honest question brother, because I have a great deal of respect for you, but I don't see the risk the same way, and I want to understand your point of view--How are we worse off tanking if that correct coach and GM were not available to us?

Assuming Adam Gase wasn't the answer, we needed a new coach. I did not see the correct coach available this past offseason. Our options were A) continue with Gase, B) hire Flores, C) hire another coach who is not the correct coach. Given those three choices, I do not see any of the three being the right answer and I do not see any of the three being a huge risk … only three bad choices that are temporarily between today's failure and tomorrow's success when we find that coach.

We got rid of the real GM too, Tannenbaum. We kept the best of the three from a talent evaluation standpoint, Grier, and added other well regarded talent evaluators like Reggie McKenzie. IMHO, that's a positive move. If we assume that the correct GM is not available that year, isn't that a net positive? My belief is that this was a decent move, even if Grier & Co. isn't the correct GM, because he was a solid choice of what was available then.

So the question becomes, how much worse off are we with stopgap GM and Coach solutions? My guess is that we are not really worse off unless we fail to hire the correct people when they do become available to us.

The other question becomes, how does tanking hurt us long-term when this GM and Coach are replaced with the correct GM and Coach? To me, it offers a clean slate with more talent.

Are you factoring in the potential loss of fans permanently if we stink up the joint too bad as we are today? Do you see this stench of dysfunctional Dolphins preventing the correct GM and Coach from coming here when they are available? Are you worried about the locker room when the new GM/Coach cleans house and gets rid of 95% of the guys we bring in via our tanking experiment? Is it the bad record we are welcoming in the short term? All good points, and I'm sure you have others, but are any of these things going to endure past the hiring of a new GM and Coach?

I guess I see this as an attempt to jump off the mediocrity treadmill we've been on for so long. We never quite have enough talent to get over the hump--and more importantly, as you've noted, we never had the right Coach. At least the tanking strategy will concentrate more talent on our roster, all things being equal. Hell, even the Barry Switzer led Dallas Cowboys was great for one year with the roster Jimmy Johnson built before he left. I would love to taste that kind of dominating team once again. But we've proven we can't build it through traditional patchwork rebuilding, so I'm game for trying to concentrate our resources via tanking. Help me understand why you see this as a big risk … if the alternative is decades of irrelevance through mediocrity … what's really at risk?
Pship.
PS. Another interesting take on the tanking situation was a thread with articles stated by Skapefin today on the lack of sucess in terms of improving and or later going on to the Super bowl when those teams that used the first pick in the draft on a QB.
 
If Ross was smart, I would clean house and let Flo go and use the example of players not playing for their coach and the GM for putting the worst roster in the history in the NFL, and go after Jim Harbaugh hard and a proven GM. That would mean Ross knows what he is doing.

But hes a little B***H and doesnt have the cajones to do it.
 
Pship.
PS. Another interesting take on the tanking situation was a thread with articles stated by Skapefin today on the lack of sucess in terms of improving and or later going on to the Super bowl when those teams that used the first pick in the draft on a QB.
We have different takes on our past drafts. Every team has hits and misses, I think our success rate with Grier is above average, he does not.
 
If Ross was smart, I would clean house and let Flo go and use the example of players not playing for their coach and the GM for putting the worst roster in the history in the NFL, and go after Jim Harbaugh hard and a proven GM. That would mean Ross knows what he is doing.

But hes a little B***H and doesnt have the cajones to do it.

Hardballs might be the one who picks up the phone first. Doesn't seem like things are going to end well in Michigan.
 
I don't understand trading a guy you just drafted last year, on a rookie deal and a top ten talent...unless they got other picks with it, totally stupid and kills my confidence of them to do anything w all these picks
 
I don't understand trading a guy you just drafted last year, on a rookie deal and a top ten talent...unless they got other picks with it, totally stupid and kills my confidence of them to do anything w all these picks

Maybe he's not Top 10 talent? Lol!
 
If Ross was smart, I would clean house and let Flo go and use the example of players not playing for their coach and the GM for putting the worst roster in the history in the NFL, and go after Jim Harbaugh hard and a proven GM. That would mean Ross knows what he is doing.

But hes a little B***H and doesnt have the cajones to do it.

Man in this era of Kaepernick, you want to fire a new african american coach after forcing him to play with a roster of UDFA's.. Then you fire him for having a bad season.. You know if one thing would keep free agents from coming here it would be if we did that.

Nope, If anything hopefully flores has enough pull in foxboro to lure josh Mcdaniels here, I think he is a more talented offensive mind then gase ever was. He has to get another year because we all know what we are doing here.. Bill Bellechick himself wouldn't be able to take this roster to the playoffs.
 
Man in this era of Kaepernick, you want to fire a new african american coach after forcing him to play with a roster of UDFA's.. Then you fire him for having a bad season.. You know if one thing would keep free agents from coming here it would be if we did that.

Nope, If anything hopefully flores has enough pull in foxboro to lure josh Mcdaniels here, I think he is a more talented offensive mind then gase ever was. He has to get another year because we all know what we are doing here.. Bill Bellechick himself wouldn't be able to take this roster to the playoffs.

why does race matter in any of this and why are you discussing a political, non dolphins figure in the main forum?
 
Man in this era of Kaepernick, you want to fire a new african american coach after forcing him to play with a roster of UDFA's.. Then you fire him for having a bad season.. You know if one thing would keep free agents from coming here it would be if we did that.

Nope, If anything hopefully flores has enough pull in foxboro to lure josh Mcdaniels here, I think he is a more talented offensive mind then gase ever was. He has to get another year because we all know what we are doing here.. Bill Bellechick himself wouldn't be able to take this roster to the playoffs.

Completely and wholeheartedly disagree with your race premise.

I am giving Flores the same rope I gave every HC since Shula.

Even the historically bad ones, when you lose a NFL caliber game changer.
 
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