Gase's Team

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Feverdream, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Liphinphan

    Liphinphan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    You said players were being blamed, with no coaches were being accountable. He changes coaches, but its not the coaches you wanted changed. Your point takes a big hit there, especially with the back pedal on "tinkering around the edges" nonsense. D line and secondary coaches are now considered this? Your original intended point falls flat.
     
  2. ForksPhin

    ForksPhin Scout Team

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    According to you. Gase calls the plays. You’re going to tell me that replacing Christensen with Loggains means coaches were held accountable? Or a new offensive line coach who replaced a cokehead means the offensive line coach was held accountable?

    Your point falls flat, buddy.
     
  3. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    I'm not sure what you mean by 'alpha personalities'. Do you mean players that lead by example, take and handle criticism, study tape and the playbook, lead in the locker room; players who demands adjustments by the other team; players who have good stats;?

    The info from trusted FH sources (over in VIP) suggest Landry was strictly the third kind of alpha. That's not to say having good stats, which suggests good play is a bad thing. But then the question becomes at what price? That's both the contract AND locker room costs.
     
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  4. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    So tired of rebuilding and the blame the game each coach since Shula has used. They continue using the excuse we can't win now cause the prior offensive or defensive schemes were bad or the players sucked. Just coach the da×= players you have and win the darn game. Thats your job, the churning the roster every time is BS. I really thought we might finally be past junk that after Gases first year as a winning coach. The moves these past year tell me he is just another coach whose ego a little to big. Back to the point though glad that Gase has all his players and coaches now that he chose so there will be no more excuses. He either must win or hit the road like the zillion of coaches we have had since Shula.
     
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  5. Laser13

    Laser13 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Gase is now mostly surrounded by “his” players and coaches. This will be a pivotal year as to whether he can bring everything together and make it work.

    I really do hope that it works out, and it’s not more of the same crap we saw last year. One particular area that I hope that we see significant improvement in is the penalties.
     
  6. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    That could definitely be the case. I mean look at Ajayi in Philly. He had a complementary role and succeeded there. Why couldn't Gase and the coaching staff get the same out of him in Miami?

    I do think you have to give the head coach some leeway, but Gase is starting to lose me a bit. When he said players weren't learning his system that was a huge red flag to me. We are talking about year two in the offense. Hopefully, Gase turns it around. His game plan against NE was a thing of beauty so there's that.
     
  7. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I don’t pretend to know the dynamics inside the building or anything like that. I only know what I saw at times - Jay and Jarvis expressing frustration - and now they are gone. All I’m saying is that’s what Philbin would have done - dump them. Though my guess is Adam and these guys have had hard conversations while it seemed Philbin would just avoid conflict. $16mil was too much but why did we allow ourselves to get into this situation in the first place? That bugs me even more.
     
  8. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Do we know this is true or speculation? He sure knew how to get open faster than anyone else in this offense - for not studying that’s pretty impressive or perhaps it suggests the other pass catchers are morons? Landry didn’t call the plays - he racked up all of those catches by being a split second quicker to find a seam than anyone else. Not his fault he caught 400 balls in 4 years. They could have used him differently - great all around football player, a bit of an asshat / immature but then where was the mentoring / veteran leadership?
     
  9. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I kinda feel the same way right now. I mean, it’s not quantum physics.
     
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  10. pacresjt

    pacresjt Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this straight, when he wins he’s good, when we have a bump I. The road year two.... sounds about the sentiment of 50% of the board. Let the guys do his thing and make a decision at the end of his contract.
     
  11. Laser13

    Laser13 Well-Known Member

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    You mean players like Mike Pouncey? The same guy that Gase has continually said is one of their leaders, but doesn’t always practice because of a degenerative hip. Treated gently like a fabergé egg. The same guy that whiffs on blocks and had a lot of costly penalties last year?

    Surely, you have to see the humor in the lip service and spin doctoring that takes place - depending on which the way winds blows or the mood strikes Gase on occasion.
     
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  12. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    All I see is the same head games that every team and coach plays. Personally, I think it's all crap and rooted in 1950's and 1960's macho psych crap.

    As for Pouncey, all we see is what happens on the field. The team sees what happens in the looker and tape room, they know if the player played hurt or not, they know who mentored or helped another player, and most importantly of all, they know what plays were called and what that player was supposed to do in each moment of the game.

    Who knows why the team was defending Pouncey. I don't care. I don't want to see or know about the sausage making involved with trying to manage a bunch of (or soon to be) millionaires play a brutal and complicated game. I'm here out of some very, very weird loyalty to growing up in Florida and clinging to the Shula and later, the Shula and Marino legacy. Gase has more 2 years to show me why this should be his team. After that I'll either be happy, decide to root for the next coach, or spend my time in other ways.
     
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  13. Laser13

    Laser13 Well-Known Member

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    I think it goes beyond the typical head games and psychology. The underlying issue is that sometimes Gase is planting a flag on the wrong players, out of sheer stubbornness and pride. Pouncey being one of those.

    I can relate to the nostalgia of the past, especially with Shula. At times, it seems like a century ago and I miss those days. That said, the present incarnation says and does many perplexing things that should be criticized and discussed amongst the fans.
     
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  14. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I’m not saying that. He used Ajai and Landry really well in 2016 when we were getting good QB play. I feel like the frustration of having Cutler back there got to the players. Yes I’m speculating- my theory is the team begrudged his $10mil to play like **** and when they started losing some players expresssed their frustration in ways that were immature. Did you see the look on Landry’s face after Jay put that ball about 10 feet over his head and into the 5th row against the Bills? So instead of giving his best players a pass, he stubbornly backed his bad decision to bring Cutler in. I don’t know that there was a better option but the I do not think the players respected Jay and I think that cost Gase some respect from some of his better players. I would have rallied the team when RT went down and just rolled to 6-10 w Matt Moore - a guy the players respected. I think Cutler is a disease and it infected the Fins. And that’s on Gase. I don’t believe those guys would have acted like such jerks if Gase had built a “us vs the world” mantra w Moore or Fails or whoever. Adam has done some good things. Infecting the team w Jay Cutler was not one of them and I believe it wrecked the chemistry the team had / culture.
     
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  15. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    How would you define "hold someone accountable"? Just because you don't like the new coach you cannot say that the previous one wasn't held accountable.

    You have probably read Chambers insight on this in VIP so I would say it's not speculation. Also, getting open doesn't mean he knows the playbook. He ran the wrong route on several occassions and that is the definition of NOT knowing the playbook.
     
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  16. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    Plus some players probably felt like Moore deserved a fair opportunity to start. Signing Cutler and guaranteeing him the starting role is like giving Moore an open handed slap in the face in front of the entire team. You can get away with it but you better be right, or the players will quickly revolt.
     
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  17. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    Imagine how many records he would hold and how much money he would be making if he were running the right routes. Twenty mill? THIRTY MILL!?!?!

    And thats not even factoring in how bad Jay Cutler/the o-line was.
     
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  18. Liphinphan

    Liphinphan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Your point falls flat, buddy.[/QUOTE]
    Oh how convenient, You don't mention the new RB's coach, the new DB's coach and the new DL coach...along with the two you mentioned. 5 new coaches in an off season. Your point, that fell short, was the players were being blamed without the coaches being held responsible. There is plenty of legitimate reasons to be upset with this team, people don't have to twist and contort themselves to find made up ones. That's the point I was trying to make concerning your invalid one
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  19. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    So what you're saying is that you don't believe Landry ran a wrong route frequently? Or do I misread your post?
     
  20. sinPHIN

    sinPHIN A True Fan

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    use to be a big fan of gase. he is rubbing me the wrong way with keeping below avg players and paying them way more than they deserve, and wanting and getting all these players that played for him in the past.
     
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  21. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    If not running the right route is 112 catches vs Parker (assume he always ran the right route) pathetic play then I’ll take the former. Bill Parcells tells a great story of coaching LT in his rookie year. Taylor consistently would blitz in a game out of a formation that wasn’t taught. Parcells yelled at him that what he was doing “wasn’t in the playbook”. Next defensive series Taylor does it again and sacks the Cards QB and George Martin picks up the fumble and runs for 6. Taylor says to Parcells “maybe we should put that in the playbook coach”. Just saying.
     
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  22. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Let's see what guaranteed money Landry gets. I am guessing $30-35 M. Evans just got $55 M. Jones got $47 M a couple of years ago.

    In year three of Landry's deal, there will be more than 15, maybe more than 20 receivers that will get past Landry's guaranteed number.

    The delta between what he would have been paid by Miami compared to what they wanted to pay, is negligible in the grand scheme and with an escalating cap.
     
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  23. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    I liked Gase's upgrades to his coaching staff. But, he needs to get away from bringing in only "his guys" (bros) as players. If that's his request, then management needs to be firm on that, and let him know where the pro scouting folks have these guys pegged. You can't give management a pass here. It's been clear from the beginning that T and Grier acquire players and Gase has control over the 53.

    T may be maneuvering to throw Gase under the bus, but the buck stops with him vis a vis player acquisition.
     
  24. ANUFan

    ANUFan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    There is a simple logic to all of this:

    A) Either Gase and his staff have absolutely no idea what they are doing and players like Landry and Ajayi are absolved.

    B) Gase and his staff do have some idea of what they are doing and players like Landry and Ajayi stood in the way of that goal.

    C) Some combination of both.

    Eitherway, I'll never be upset with someone that's doing what they feel they need to do to be successful. That's his job and i'm pretty certain he's more intune with it, the players, his system, his coaching staff than any fan on this website or other form of media.

    It's asinine, imo, for fans "knowledgeable" through watching games to think themselves informed enough to judge what's a good or bad move. Literally with no other insight beyond that.

    The hilarity!
     
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  25. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP

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    There’s no way you can say Ajayi in Philly is paradise just yet. The guy got traded to the best team in the league. That will do a lot for morale. Also, of course he’s eager to show a good attitude to show the naysayers s wrong. It’s like the common man starting a new exercise program. At first you’re guns ho but over time you lose interest and sometimes revert to old habits. Let’s see how Jay behaves if the Eagles hit a tough ugh patch.
     
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  26. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    That's true. We'll see how it plays out. Was definitely happy with the way Drake stepped up, but Miami does need a power back for short-yardage and to run out the clock.
     
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  27. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    And that *IS* the point. And it's a damned good one. A once in a generation, game changing *ELITE* player gets aways with that kind of stuff and if a coach can't adjust, you KEEP the player. BUT, BUT, BUT for an above average (you can argue that Landry or Ajayi was more, but it doesn't change the argument) player that doesn't require scheming from the other team, doesn't change games, or the team isn't winning consistanly, you CAN NOT have freelancing or the coach is going to get fired.
     
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  28. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    Everyone keeps saying "escalating cap" and "the cap always goes up". From 2000 through 2007, everyone kept saying "housing prices can only good up" too. Turns out that in 2008 they were wrong. We've all been hearing about NFL rating issues, the NBA is on a huge upswing, and only our X-gamers did well in the olympics, all of which suggests the cap might not always be going up. It's only prudent to not overpay non-elite players.
     
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  29. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    Where is the this times 1,000,000 button?
     
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  30. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    No football team would get rid of a player like LT. Jarvis Landry though, he’s no LT.

    Besides, 112 catches for 987 yards. 511 if those came after the catch. That’s over 50%. On average when he caught a pass it was 4.25 yards “downfield”. So he wasn’t really getting open, he was schemed open for all these screen passes.
     
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  31. Laser13

    Laser13 Well-Known Member

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    By that logic and rationale, then Joe Philbin would still be coaching the Miami Dolphins. Or any other numerous coaches we’ve had.

    What you’re effectively saying is that nobody outside of their organization and inner circle should ever dare to criticize, discuss, or question their decisions.

    That’s an echo chamber mantra.
     
  32. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    What free lancing are we talking about? Did he consistently run wrong routes or do it “several times” as was quoted. Several could be 3 who knows? Free lancing and making a mistake on your assignment are two different things. I only cite the LT story because it suggests that sometimes the players do have a better feel for what’s going on the field - sometimes. I’d assume if he was freelancing he and the QB were not on the same page. I don’t know how you get open so often, catch so many balls in 4 years when you are running the wrong routes. I’m not buying this so much as I think it’s about his conduct and hot headedness than his play.
     
  33. royalshank

    royalshank Not a Game-Changer Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Schemed open? So he WAS running the plays as designed? Which is it? IDK - I think he and Gase just clashed personality-wise and HC always going to win that battle. Unless you are Ben Macadoo.
     
  34. fin415

    fin415 Not a slot receiver Finheaven VIP

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    My fault for responding so specifically to your example with LT. There are a bunch of variables in the determination of the value of a player. The team is the final arbiter of that value TO THEM. Landry's value in the eyes of management was lower than Landry valued himself. I know the FO hasn't done anything to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'll still take their opinion over that of the player (and I know that position comes with some serious risk) because I know from a lifetime of working, good management is all about getting input from everyone but the decisions are made by the guy at the top.

    One teams trash can turn into other teams gold, so I think we should look back in a year or two and see who was right. Looking back at the last couple of years, we've released a fair number of players that FH lost their collection minds over (OV, LM, etc.) and, for the most part, none one we let go was suddenly elite, or as far as I can tell, even played up to their contracts.
     
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  35. ANUFan

    ANUFan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    So you think the successful coaches were successful because they didn't follow their vision? What they deemed to be successful?

    You think instead they followed what Laser13 and his group suggested as the appropriate course of action?

    Okay! Got it!

    I honestly can't take any of you serious. Too many experts all in one place for my liking.
     
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  36. ForksPhin

    ForksPhin Scout Team

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    The key question here is when has Gase been successful? I understand he was the “coordinator” for the Broncos when they scored the most points in NFL history, but that was a fairly special situation where an all-time great QB dropped into their laps.

    Outside of the season, when?
     
  37. andyahs

    andyahs Bahamian Redneck Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Ah good another jab at Gase.
     
  38. ANUFan

    ANUFan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Huh? When was Belichick successful prior to winning his 1st SB with NE? What does your question even mean? What's its foundation and how in the world does it coherently apply here?

    Then you follow up your embarrassing question by curtailing the work of Gase to "special situation."

    Huh? Do you even know how the great Tom Brady came to be and got his start in NE? If Gase by your logic found himself in a "special situation" then what do you consider the situation Belichick found himself in when Brady came in for the injured Bledsoe?
     
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  39. Laser13

    Laser13 Well-Known Member

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    Seems like you’re trying to go out of your way to try and unsuccessfully insult me. Are you implying that I can’t question the direction and decision-making because I don’t work for them directly? A straight yes or no answer will suffice in this case.

    It’s all fine and dandy for a coach or organization to follow their vision, whether that leads to prosperity or burying them in their tracks. That’s entirely their prerogative of course, even if it’s a detriment to losing ticket sales, merchandise, and the good faith of the fan base that supports them.

    What you suggested was that nobody should ever criticize or question their decisions. That’s not the way that the world works.
     
  40. ANUFan

    ANUFan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Oh you're free to question all you want. You're free to question as a member of this site, as a Dolphins fan (I assume), by playing Madden, by perhaps attending a few games etc.

    But what i'm pretty confident in saying, like most on the board, you're likely and wholly unqualified to do so.

    It's not your fault by the way. It's this social media/internet culture we live in. It's too easy to log on and deem yourself an expert or at least knowledge enough to contribute meaningfully.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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