Hagan & McDuffie

[Da 'Fins]

First, on OJ - he's going to be on Cold Pizza. Maybe this is a bit of a tryout for him to become a correspondent and analyst for ESPN. I'd like to see him have success.

I'm liking the articles on Hagan. I watched some film highlights during the draft and he does run sharp routes. The two critiques on him were, 1 - he dropped a lot of passes at the Senior Bowl (that's what everyone in the papers is talking about) and 2 (which is not talked about in the papers) - his speed doesn't always show up in his route running - so he doesn't get the separation that you want.

Hopefully, good coaching will help him use his speed effectively. You have to like what we're hearing out of camp even though the games will be the true determinant of Hagan's progress.

If some of these guys work out and become starters or key subs (Allen, Hagan, Toledo) it would be another excellent draft for Saban. If Manny Wright ever gets his stuff together - then what Saban has done with the past two set of draft picks will be better than what Wanny did his entire stint.

 

[ckparrothead]

To my memory, his criticisms were 1. dropping a bunch of passes and 2. dropping a bunch of passes, lol.

You're right in that evaluators were genuinely surprised by his 40 time, but that's because on the field he shows up a little deficient as one of those deep speed guys.

The problem comes in the conversion of a time, to a speed. He had technically the fastest 10 yard split of any WR at the Combine (depending on whether you count Sinorice Moss' injured run or not)...but when his 40 came in it was 4.46 seconds. That translates to a top gear of 22.2 mph. Other players, the ones with faster top gears, regularly achieve about 23.0 mph or better. I think the best I've seen is about 23.5 or something.

Anywho all I'm saying is it's one thing to compare times next to each other but they don't tell the whole story. Sometimes you need to have a snapshot of how fast a guy is traveling when he turns on the afterburners...because that's the animal that a DB is dealing with on a deep route, it isn't about running 40 yards quicker than the other guy to a DB because he'd beat the WR to the spot every time since DBs start out closer to the spot than WRs. It's about once the DB realizes it's a fly route and turns on his afterburners, is the WR traveling too fast for him or can he chew up ground. With Hagan, most CBs will chew up ground.

 

[Aussiefinfan54]

yeah looks like we will just have to wait until he gets out onto the field this season and goes deep to see wther or not his speed and or catching is up to scratch for being a good/top reciever

 

[SoDakDolfan]

You don't have to be the fastest guy on the field to be a great receiver, just ask Steve Largent or Jerry Rice.

 

[jbond]

The problem comes in the conversion of a time, to a speed. He had technically the fastest 10 yard split of any WR at the Combine (depending on whether you count Sinorice Moss' injured run or not)...but when his 40 came in it was 4.46 seconds. That translates to a top gear of 22.2 mph. Other players, the ones with faster top gears, regularly achieve about 23.0 mph or better. I think the best I've seen is about 23.5 or something.

Anywho all I'm saying is it's one thing to compare times next to each other but they don't tell the whole story. Sometimes you need to have a snapshot of how fast a guy is traveling when he turns on the afterburners...because that's the animal that a DB is dealing with on a deep route, it isn't about running 40 yards quicker than the other guy to a DB because he'd beat the WR to the spot every time since DBs start out closer to the spot than WRs. It's about once the DB realizes it's a fly route and turns on his afterburners, is the WR traveling too fast for him or can he chew up ground. With Hagan, most CBs will chew up ground.

nice analysis CK and a good reason why he's be another OG type posession / 3rd receiver to help get the critical 1st downs on 3rd.. Lighting quick speed off the line just enough to get past the LOS and lose his immediate cover to make the 1st down...but doesn't have the top speed to be a burner down the sidelines. His height and weight and 10 yard split time....I think he'll come in handy for us quite a bit :)

 

[ckparrothead]

nice analysis CK and a good reason why he's be another OG type posession / 3rd receiver to help get the critical 1st downs on 3rd.. Lighting quick speed off the line just enough to get past the LOS and lose his immediate cover to make the 1st down...but doesn't have the top speed to be a burner down the sidelines. His height and weight and 10 yard split time....I think he'll come in handy for us quite a bit :)

I don't think that's a fair comparison either. He's much, much quicker than OG ever was, and doesn't have the hands OG did.

As for OG being a 'possession' guy, remember when OG was a 3rd WR in the Dolphins offense, with Dan Marino here, he was a big play guy. He wasn't a possession guy at all. He never was a chain mover from the slot a la OJ McDuffie. He was a deep threat. No speed whatsoever, but he was a deep threat. Why? Cuz the dude could catch the ball with one hand on the run without bothering to even leap in the air. When Dave moved him to the outside and made him a starter, combined him with an inaccurate deep passer with a noodle arm, that's when OG became a possession guy constantly running slant routes that were easily predictable.

I believe OG has two catches on display at the Hall of Fame. Hagan can't compare with that, especially considering what he showed at the Senior Bowl and Combine.

You don't need deep speed (ie. 23.5 mph top gear) to be a deep threat. Marvin Harrison gets by just fine, as does Chad Johnson. The key is and always has been about working your all-around game and making yourself dangerous on every route. That's what makes you hard to defend, in a CB's eyes. That's how guys that are not blazing fast end up big time deep threats.

It's a matter of working for it. Scouts are usually of the opinion that a dude that has that blazing top gear (and hopefully some height to boot) doesn't have to work for it to be a deep threat, he stretches a defense just by BEING there. A guy without the top gear has to be dangerous everywhere in order to be dangerous deep.

But in college, that's what Hagan was...dangerous everywhere.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

OG also had monstrous hands. He could almost wrap his fingers around a football.

 

[NatCyn]

To my memory, his criticisms were 1. dropping a bunch of passes and 2. dropping a bunch of passes, lol.

You're right in that evaluators were genuinely surprised by his 40 time, but that's because on the field he shows up a little deficient as one of those deep speed guys.

The problem comes in the conversion of a time, to a speed. He had technically the fastest 10 yard split of any WR at the Combine (depending on whether you count Sinorice Moss' injured run or not)...but when his 40 came in it was 4.46 seconds. That translates to a top gear of 22.2 mph. Other players, the ones with faster top gears, regularly achieve about 23.0 mph or better. I think the best I've seen is about 23.5 or something.

Anywho all I'm saying is it's one thing to compare times next to each other but they don't tell the whole story. Sometimes you need to have a snapshot of how fast a guy is traveling when he turns on the afterburners...because that's the animal that a DB is dealing with on a deep route, it isn't about running 40 yards quicker than the other guy to a DB because he'd beat the WR to the spot every time since DBs start out closer to the spot than WRs. It's about once the DB realizes it's a fly route and turns on his afterburners, is the WR traveling too fast for him or can he chew up ground. With Hagan, most CBs will chew up ground.

That's one of the most intelligent posts I've read on this forum. That is also an excellent reason that the 40 is an overrated gauge with which to judge a player's speed, it's helpful no doubt but there are other criteria on which to judge a player's speed as well. Awesome post though.

 

[LAphinfan]

To my memory, his criticisms were 1. dropping a bunch of passes and 2. dropping a bunch of passes, lol.

You're right in that evaluators were genuinely surprised by his 40 time, but that's because on the field he shows up a little deficient as one of those deep speed guys.

The problem comes in the conversion of a time, to a speed. He had technically the fastest 10 yard split of any WR at the Combine (depending on whether you count Sinorice Moss' injured run or not)...but when his 40 came in it was 4.46 seconds. That translates to a top gear of 22.2 mph. Other players, the ones with faster top gears, regularly achieve about 23.0 mph or better. I think the best I've seen is about 23.5 or something.

Anywho all I'm saying is it's one thing to compare times next to each other but they don't tell the whole story. Sometimes you need to have a snapshot of how fast a guy is traveling when he turns on the afterburners...because that's the animal that a DB is dealing with on a deep route, it isn't about running 40 yards quicker than the other guy to a DB because he'd beat the WR to the spot every time since DBs start out closer to the spot than WRs. It's about once the DB realizes it's a fly route and turns on his afterburners, is the WR traveling too fast for him or can he chew up ground. With Hagan, most CBs will chew up ground.

What you're getting at is the difference between quickness and top speed. Quickness is the ability to accelerate up to high speeds in a short time, whereas top speed is just like what it sounds--also called breakaway speed. WR's don't run fade routes that often compared to 10 yard outs and ins and crossing patterns, etc. so normally quickness is better because the WR sprints 5-10 yds., makes a cut sprints another 5-10 and the ball is there or isn't. Breakaway speed really makes the homerun ball more effective and helps on the shorter stuff because the THREAT of getting burned deep makes the db play further off the reciever. Hagan should be an effective short to med. range reciever like McDuffie was.

 

[ckparrothead]

That's one of the most intelligent posts I've read on this forum. That is also an excellent reason that the 40 is an overrated gauge with which to judge a player's speed, it's helpful no doubt but there are other criteria on which to judge a player's speed as well. Awesome post though.

I think it's a good bellweather for speed...but there's no reason to just pay attention to 40 times IF you have access to the myriad other measurables that get collected coming out of the draft. I think a lot of the time you don't have access to all those numbers and so 40 times is all you have to go by and it's a pretty decent indicator.

 

[djphinfan]

To my memory, his criticisms were 1. dropping a bunch of passes and 2. dropping a bunch of passes, lol.

You're right in that evaluators were genuinely surprised by his 40 time, but that's because on the field he shows up a little deficient as one of those deep speed guys.

The problem comes in the conversion of a time, to a speed. He had technically the fastest 10 yard split of any WR at the Combine (depending on whether you count Sinorice Moss' injured run or not)...but when his 40 came in it was 4.46 seconds. That translates to a top gear of 22.2 mph. Other players, the ones with faster top gears, regularly achieve about 23.0 mph or better. I think the best I've seen is about 23.5 or something.

Anywho all I'm saying is it's one thing to compare times next to each other but they don't tell the whole story. Sometimes you need to have a snapshot of how fast a guy is traveling when he turns on the afterburners...because that's the animal that a DB is dealing with on a deep route, it isn't about running 40 yards quicker than the other guy to a DB because he'd beat the WR to the spot every time since DBs start out closer to the spot than WRs. It's about once the DB realizes it's a fly route and turns on his afterburners, is the WR traveling too fast for him or can he chew up ground. With Hagan, most CBs will chew up ground.

Break it down brother,
I got a kick out of this one, in a good way,gettin to know your personality a little bit.keep up the good work.

 

[FinsFanLuke]

I forget where I read it, but Chambers had nothing but praise for Hagan. Chambers even suggested that Hagan is further ahead than he was during his rookie season. I think this kid could really turn into something special for us in a season or two when he gets the rookie WR kinks out.
Luka:dolphins: