How about some Gesicki tape?

[djphinfan]

Kudos to you for owning up to that brother.

Tua has shown ability to throw to size mismatches and that's definitely who Gesicki is. Where Tua has not excelled as a rookie is intermediate throws and throws over the middle. IMHO, a large part of that is him recovering from his hip injury and being a bit scared to make those difficult throws on seam routes, etc. But, with Tua fully healed and having a full offseason to get his rythem right, I think he'll throw more of those intermediate routes and we'll see him able to take advantage of Gesicki's exceptional seam route ability like Fitzmagic did. Tua makes good decisions, so throws that require extreme precision and lots of velocity weren't good decisions in his rehabbing state as a rookie. But I expect that to level out this year.

Deep throws you can wind up and overthrow with a margin of safety. Likewise, those short throws limit the INT exposure as well. The outside throws can be shaded out of bounds to provide that margin of safety. But those intermediate throws in the middle of the field ... there's very little margin for error. Too flat and they'll get tipped by LB's, too high and they'll get INT by FS's, too much anticipation and you risk firing blind into a sagging DL/LB or gambling CB like Xavien Howard. A smidgeon behind and the WR/TE can't quite reach back and get it, leading to tipped balls and INT's. Those middle intermediate throws are deceptively hard, and DC's feast on rookie QB's with baiting them into throwing those routes. So, Tua correctly didn't throw them very often. It's safer ... but those routes are needed to make a passing offense productive, so we'll need to see a lot more this year from Tua. I think he can make the adjustment.

Dig I think Tua is a classic rhythm passer, he thrives in the action of 1,2,3 find the open target and release..

Im very confident in how Gesicki wins on his catches and its not about route running or seperation, it’s all about catch radius..so while I know Tua with his innate accuracy traits can get him the ball in rhythm and in tight windows, I don’t believe that’s what your looking for in his receivers..

Gesicki is a classic jump ball 50/50 catcher.Tua needs twitchy receivers who can separate at The line and cut the field up into angles..

I mean I agree that Gesicki can run a route down the seam and all you got to do is throw it high and no one else in football is going to beat him to that catch point, and yes he can catch the fade route, but to me that’s a receiver in the rotation..

its Pitts vrs Smith, Chase, Waddle.etc..

Pitts and Smith are the best separators in that group.one of those two I think is the call with the first pick, hopefully we can trade down a bit.

 

[Feverdream]

Dig I think Tua is a classic rhythm passer, he thrives in the action of 1,2,3 find the open target and release..

Im very confident in how Gesicki wins on his catches and its not about route running or seperation, it’s all about catch radius..so while I know Tua with his innate accuracy traits can get him the ball in rhythm and in tight windows, I don’t believe that’s what your looking for in his receivers..

Gesicki is a classic jump ball 50/50 catcher.Tua needs twitchy receivers who can separate at The line and cut the field up into angles..

I mean I agree that Gesicki can run a route down the seam and all you got to do is throw it high and no one else in football is going to beat him to that catch point, and yes he can catch the fade route, but to me that’s a receiver in the rotation..

its Pitts vrs Smith, Chase, Waddle.etc..

Pitts and Smith are the best separators in that group.one of those two I think is the call with the first pick, hopefully we can trade down a bit.

But this brings up the point that bignastyfish keeps making...

If Tua requires a specific kind of receiver, then he is NOT the guy that was described to us. He is a limited QB if this is true... and will have been a mistake.

 

[NBP81]

But this brings up the point that bignastyfish keeps making...

If Tua requires a specific kind of receiver, then he is NOT the guy that was described to us. He is a limited QB if this is true... and will have been a mistake.

How about Tua cant operate with the specific kind of receivers that cant separate, cant get yards after the catch and drop alot of balls without throwing alot of INTs? Who can? How many teams in the NFL made the playoffs being bottom of the barrell in everyone of those categories? You can certainly move an offense with these types, but it comes at the price of throwing INTs. Simple as that.

When your only strong point as a TE is catching 50/50 balls, you're kind of useless. It leads to inconsistent production from game to game, you'll have you big games when you catch a couple coinflips in a row followed by the no-shows where its tails 3 times in a row. It wouldnt be so big of a deal if all of the Fins WRs werent like that, but they are. Parker, Williams and Gesicki basically all serve the same purpose on this offense which should really be one guy's job.

Gesicki was held to 30 yards or less in 5 games this season... Kelce was held to less than 30 yards 3 times... In his 1st 3 seasons combined. Bringing up total numbers when you dont understand numbers is not a good plan. And before we try to make an argument that Tua couldnt use Gesicki right, let me save you the time, 4 out of those five games under 30 yards were with Fitz starting.

 

[Feverdream]

How about Tua cant operate with the specific kind of receivers that cant separate, cant get yards after the catch and drop alot of balls without throwing alot of INTs? Who can? How many teams in the NFL made the playoffs being bottom of the barrell in everyone of those categories? You can certainly move an offense with these types, but it comes at the price of throwing INTs. Simple as that.

When your only strong point as a TE is catching 50/50 balls, you're kind of useless. It leads to inconsistent production from game to game, you'll have you big games when you catch a couple coinflips in a row followed by the no-shows where its tails 3 times in a row. It wouldnt be so big of a deal if all of the Fins WRs werent like that, but they are. Parker, Williams and Gesicki basically all serve the same purpose on this offense which should really be one guy's job.

Gesicki was held to 30 yards or less in 5 games this season... Kelce was held to less than 30 yards 3 times... In his 1st 3 seasons combined. Bringing up total numbers when you dont understand numbers is not a good plan. And before we try to make an argument that Tua couldnt use Gesicki right, let me save you the time, 4 out of those five games under 30 yards were with Fitz starting.

ROFL!

as always...

 

[Feverdream]

How about Tua cant operate with the specific kind of receivers that cant separate, cant get yards after the catch and drop alot of balls without throwing alot of INTs? Who can? How many teams in the NFL made the playoffs being bottom of the barrell in everyone of those categories? You can certainly move an offense with these types, but it comes at the price of throwing INTs. Simple as that.

This is what is known as a "Gish Gallop". In debate terms, this means that you make several assertions or ask a bunch of questions all at once... without waiting for answers or really wanting them.

As a catch all answer, I will say this. All QBs benefit from having receivers who are wide open. At this point in his career, these are the only receivers that Tua is comfortable throwing to... and whenever anyone says that Tua neeeeeds wide open receivers, i guess the answer is... who doesn't.

When your only strong point as a TE is catching 50/50 balls, you're kind of useless. It leads to inconsistent production from game to game, you'll have you big games when you catch a couple coinflips in a row followed by the no-shows where its tails 3 times in a row. It wouldnt be so big of a deal if all of the Fins WRs werent like that, but they are. Parker, Williams and Gesicki basically all serve the same purpose on this offense which should really be one guy's job.

Your assertion is that his ONLY strong point is catching 50/50 balls... but it's just that... an assertion. He's a good seam route runner and is tough to bring down... like most Tight Ends. The other receivers are not part of the Gesicki analysis.

Gesicki was held to 30 yards or less in 5 games this season... Kelce was held to less than 30 yards 3 times... In his 1st 3 seasons combined. Bringing up total numbers when you dont understand numbers is not a good plan. And before we try to make an argument that Tua couldnt use Gesicki right, let me save you the time, 4 out of those five games under 30 yards were with Fitz starting.

Heh... In Kelce's first season...he played in one game... and was 24 years old.

BTW... nice strawman argument attempt... assuming incorrectly what I'd say and then arguing with your imagination. Pretty funny.

Not understanding total numbers? ROFL... oh guru, please share your nowlidge with meeee.

I always get a chuckle out of your posts... never change!

 

[NBP81]

At this point in his career, these are the only receivers that Tua is comfortable throwing to

How do you know this? Because at this point, he's been throwing to the very worst in the league at this...

He's a good seam route runner and is tough to bring down

He's bottom 3(not a typo where I forgot to write "rd", he's flat out 3rd to last, right in front of Parker) in the league at getting separation and bottom 3rd in the league at yards after the catch... How you translate that to "good route runner who's though to bring down", there's gotta be alot of mental gymnastics going on here...

 

[eMCee85]

say what you want but he can make some nice catches

I like Gesecki. I dont get why people want to get rid of him...

 

[Feverdream]

I like Gesecki. I dont get why people want to get rid of him...

Stubbornness... most of them trashed him from day one and now don't want to back down.

 

[djphinfan]

But this brings up the point that bignastyfish keeps making...

If Tua requires a specific kind of receiver, then he is NOT the guy that was described to us. He is a limited QB if this is true... and will have been a mistake.

I think that’s a valid question..But I’m not sure it matters in the big pic.

I think players like Mahomes, Rogers, Wilson can play in any system, But i think to get the best out of Tuas skillset there is a system out there that will capitalize On his speed of play, release, accuracy and quick decision making.

I think some players kind of “float” in between systems for lack of a better word, I think tua Likes to play in rhythm, then if it’s not there, improvise..So if you get receivers who can separate quickly and get into their routes quickly, then his talents can exploit the scheme, which would be setting up quickly, releasing quickly and getting the ball into their hands in the correct position so they can not break stride.

like ive said several times, it’s really a west coast offense he would thrive in with some zone read principles..

 

[Geordie]

Stubbornness... most of them trashed him from day one and now don't want to back down.

You are making groundless claims here, don't dare speak for everyone here who is not super high on Gesicki. I loved the pick when we made it, was super excited, finally an offesive weapon. Then his first season happened and it was quite literally a train wreck, ok we move on I thought, season two comes along and he shows signs, ends the season with some great performances. Good signs.

Season three comes along, surely he will show improvement especially in route running and getting separation, we've already written off his blocking, we've got other TEs for that job anyways. But it more of the same, the consistency is not there, he's a 50/50 jump ball kind of guy who still hasn't worked out how to run a route to create some separation, he's flashing still from time to time with the spectacular catch he has to make because the QBs can't ever find him open, but he goes missing in most games, in situations where he should be excelling, like the red zone, he's almost an after thought.

This is his contract year, I'm not sure I've personally seen enough from him to want to invest in him, especially when his QB is a QB he clearly doesn't mesh with. Now the FO may have a different view and we may find out soon if he's our guy, but if I were them I would be looking at how can we improve that position, maybe it's drafting Pitts to replace him or to help free him from the tight coverages he clearly has a problem escaping from.

Stubbornness is not assessing how the guy has developed over his career here, which has been down, up, then flat line, it's not conclusive proof that he's a keeper at all.

 

[Feverdream]

I think that’s a valid question..But I’m not sure it matters in the big pic.

I think players like Mahomes, Rogers, Wilson can play in any system, But i think to get the best out of Tuas skillset there is a system out there that will capitalize On his speed of play, release, accuracy and quick decision making.

I think some players kind of “float” in between systems for lack of a better word, I think tua Likes to play in rhythm, then if it’s not there, improvise..So if you get receivers who can separate quickly and get into their routes quickly, then his talents can exploit the scheme, which would be setting up quickly, releasing quickly and getting the ball into their hands in the correct position so they can not break stride.

like ive said several times, it’s really a west coast offense he would thrive in with some zone read principles..

Now... all of that I can endorse. The fact that you don't blindly endorse Tua as a savior immediately makes me willing to listen to you.

...and I agree with you here... I do think the Tua will be better with a talented slot receiver, and one of the two flanks being more of an inside/outside guy than a true flanker.

What worries me... is the lunkheads who think that he needs a stable full of these guys, rather than some large targets and some smaller ones. In the red zone, these larger targets with huge wingspans are so valuable. Gesicki, and probably Preston Williams will feast in those situations if the small guys can get us up and down the field.

I strive for balance... and the dunderheads who want a fleet of quick guys don't see that the better offenses can do both things well. They are making a mistake of wanting to go from one extreme to the other. Quite honestly, I don't think Flores/Grier will make that mistake.

 

[Feverdream]

You are making groundless claims here, don't dare speak for everyone here who is not super high on Gesicki. I loved the pick when we made it, was super excited, finally an offesive weapon. Then his first season happened and it was quite literally a train wreck, ok we move on I thought, season two comes along and he shows signs, ends the season with some great performances. Good signs.

Season three comes along, surely he will show improvement especially in route running and getting separation, we've already written off his blocking, we've got other TEs for that job anyways. But it more of the same, the consistency is not there, he's a 50/50 jump ball kind of guy who still hasn't worked out how to run a route to create some separation, he's flashing still from time to time with the spectacular catch he has to make because the QBs can't ever find him open, but he goes missing in most games, in situations where he should be excelling, like the red zone, he's almost an after thought.

This is his contract year, I'm not sure I've personally seen enough from him to want to invest in him, especially when his QB is a QB he clearly doesn't mesh with. Now the FO may have a different view and we may find out soon if he's our guy, but if I were them I would be looking at how can we improve that position, maybe it's drafting Pitts to replace him or to help free him from the tight coverages he clearly has a problem escaping from.

Stubbornness is not assessing how the guy has developed over his career here, which has been down, up, then flat line, it's not conclusive proof that he's a keeper at all.

I'll stand on what I said with regard to most of the anti-Gesicki posters.

You may have a slightly different take, so I'll provide this bit of information. Kelce's first good year was when he was 25. His first year with as many as 8 TDs happened when he was 28... and he is considered to be the best TE in the game. TEs take awhile and in your analysis, you clearly expected him to be better... earlier than Kelce was any good.

Think about that.

(edit) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KelcTr00.htm

 

[Geordie]

I'll stand on what I said with regard to most of the anti-Gesicki posters.

You may have a slightly different take, so I'll provide this bit of information. Kelce's first good year was when he was 25. His first year with as many as 8 TDs happened when he was 28... and he is considered to be the best TE in the game. TEs take awhile and in your analysis, you clearly expected him to be better... earlier than Kelce was any good.

Think about that.

(edit) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KelcTr00.htm

I highly doubt Gesicki will ever get anywhere near Kelce's level. Ridiculous comparision. Strange for you to think that when you've already written Tua off after 9 games, seriously don't understand some folks sometimes.

 

[Feverdream]

I highly doubt Gesicki will ever get anywhere near Kelce's level. Ridiculous comparision. Strange for you to think that when you've already written Tua off after 9 games, seriously don't understand some folks sometimes.

What on Earth makes you think that I've written Tua off?

I have never said such a thing.

...and what Kelce has going for him is mostly twofold... he is in a wonderful offense, and he gets a ton of targets... yet, at 31 years old, his high for TDs is 11. He's good, but his production isn't something Gesicki couldn't match if he continues to grow... as Kelce did.

 

[DPhinz_DPhinz]

What on Earth makes you think that I've written Tua off?

I have never said such a thing.

...and what Kelce has going for him is mostly twofold... he is in a wonderful offense, and he gets a ton of targets... yet, at 31 years old, his high for TDs is 11. He's good, but his production isn't something Gesicki couldn't match if he continues to grow... as Kelce did.

Look at the guy's footer...

Who does he have us drafting in the top 10. That should tell you everything you need to know about his opinion on Gesicki.

I would trade Gesicki and bring in the TE from the Rams (fiscally prudent and better blocker).

That doesn't mean Gesicki hasn't turned into one of the better TE's in the league and has proven it where Pitts hasn't.