I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans.

[lane26]

im telling you, jake long and albert :)

 

[Kdawg954]

I can't believe they would dare pick a QB with the state of the team, without an OL you can't win. Look at the QBs in the playoffs where they that good or their OL was the difference.
The defeated Pats Brady looked very pedestrian without protection.

U would think so, but remember the team is being taken over by a new regime . . . and if they feel Beck isn't there guy . . . this would be the time to draft a guy they can build the team around.

Hopefully they think like you and I and realize that we need to build the heart of the team and give Mr. Beck some time. We can still draft a QB late . . . maybe an Erik Ainge . . . a guy who has pretty good arm strength and nice size . . . to possibly develop.

 

[CANDolphan]

People can honestly give up on Brandon Albert. Odds of him being available with our 32nd overall pick are slim to none. PIttsburgh will be grabbing him.

 

[BO KNOWS]

1. I disagree that Ryan is as accurate as Beck. When I watch Ryan's games he doesn't hit people in stride like Beck does. He makes his receivers make harder catches (like Harrington did, but not as bad). I think that hurts his completion percentage particularly on the longer passes. And I don't think height is much of an issue if your QB is at least 6'2". Anything above that only provides very marginal advantages (if any). The age is a downgrade as far as potential longevity but I think there are other factors that affect so I don't place as much importance on that as other factors (ie. accuracy). I do believe that Ryan is a good prospect but he's not great and certainly no more worthy of being the #1 overall than Beck was. All in all I believe that Beck has a slightly higher chance of NFL success.

I TOTALLY AGREE 100 %

 

[BO KNOWS]

Well, ur contradicting what the "experts" say. They say that "vision" and "accuracy" are actually Matt Ryan's "strong" points.

And a unanimous consensus have Matt Ryan a franchise material, top 5 QB. Beck was a unanimous consensue of "not" being a franchise QB and all but a 2nd round pick at most.

YEA I KNOW ALL THESE EXPERTS LIKE TO THINK THEY KNOW EVERY THING AND SEEM TO MISS ON QUITE A BIT. THEY CAN'T TELL INTO THE FUTURE SO I BELIEVE WE CON EVALUATE AS WELL AS THEY CAN.... IMO...:rotfl1:

 

[dlockz]

there is no unanimous opinion of Matt Ryan being a franchise QB. The unanimous opinoon on him is he's the top QB in a weak QB draft.

Name one legitimate scout that says this is a weak draft, in fact this draft is probably stronger than last years draft at qb.

 

[BO KNOWS]

Well, ur contradicting what the "experts" say. They say that "vision" and "accuracy" are actually Matt Ryan's "strong" points.

And a unanimous consensus have Matt Ryan a franchise material, top 5 QB. Beck was a unanimous consensue of "not" being a franchise QB and all but a 2nd round pick at most.[/quote]

Please see my post to AP!!!! He will argue for Matt Ryan, but he's not constantly making items up and calling them facts as you have constantly done in this debate over Ryan or Beck. Once again you make a statement on all of the experts opinions on Beck or Ryan for that matter and you call them facts. Facts are 1st hand knowledge which you have nothing of. Please if you are going to make an argument for a player that's fine and I'm completely down with that, but labeling your opinion as fact makes all of your arguments seem overly bias and pointless.

An example of good argument for Matt Ryan would follows as:

I think Ryan is worth the number 1 pick because he shows up during pressure situations during the 4th qtr and doesn't get rattled. He seems to have a knack for the 4th quarter comeback like many greats have shown. He has also showed the ability to lead in those situations and it appears that his team remained calm in those situations because of his leadership abilities!

Please take notice that I didn't have to state all of the experts said this about him or all of the experts say Beck is garbage or whatever your term of the day is for him. It really isn't a difficult thing to do to state your opinion objectively!

DANG!!!!

 

[Show Me Your TDs]

CK--
Glad to see you posting about the draft again. I've been really focusing on watching tape of several OL prospects. I can potentially see MIA select 3 prospects to fill out their 9 spots usually allocated for OL. Lets say we select Chris Long with the first pick who do you think we target for the rest of the draft? Any Ideas?

I've got my eyes on a few
OTs:
Gosder Cherilus (Outstanding run blocking Tackle)
Anthony Collins (a bit raw but great physical tools)
Duane Brown (Surprising Athletic Tackle prospect)
John Greco (Solid T/G prospect)
Heath Benedict (Small school mid rounder)
King Dunlap (Late round project)
OGs:
Mike McGlynn (Solid second day prospect)
Shawn Murphy (Late round prospect (5-7)
Fernando Valasco (C/G)

 

[Show Me Your TDs]

Oh and CK or Boomer--
Where do you see Jeff Otah going in this draft? I finished watching tape on him last weekend and I came away very impressed. I was much more impressed with him than Ryan Clady or Chris Williams. While he doesn't have the pure athletism you would like in a LT like Clady and Williams have he just seemed to physically dominant his competition.

 

[caneaddict]

I agree that his supporting WR were bad...garbage is pretty strong though. Also agree that Ryan's deep balls are quite accurate. However, in my opinion, all his throws, short, intermediate to long are more accurate than Beck's.

You gotta love Ryan's balls, I know Adam does. In fact I don't blame him. I've heard Matt's balls best described as jaw dropping :newera:



Sorry guys I just couldn't resist!

 

[Digital]

One thing I dont' really see being discussed about Matt Ryan is his out pattern throws. It takes a strong arm to throw a quick out or a deep out to the long side of the field because a quick and fast CB can jump those routes. Furthermore, it requires both vision and accuracy to pull the trigger on those throws and, more importantly, to know when not to pull the trigger on those throws. Now Ryan's receivers weren't exactly world-beaters, so they didn't have the physical ability to consistently get open for those throws. Most of the times he threw it his receiver was either well open or facing a CB that couldn't take advantage of jumping the route.

Now in Miami with a super-fast Ginn starting to become a top receiver, and it's a fair guess that we'll also be adding more receivers via FA and the draft over the next 2 offseasons, I think the Dolphins QB needs to have the ability to consistently make those throws, both the quick out and the deep out. I'm not saying Ryan cannot do it, I'm just saying that I'm not totally convinced about it. He is definitely more accurate throwing straight ahead than judging crossing patterns, so I wonder how he's going to do with true speed freaks like Ginn? He's accurate, but he sometimes throws near-misses that end up being caught because of receiver adjustments rather than perfect throws into a safe-window that require receiver adjustments. In the NFL, the CB play is lethal. Some have hands of stone, but they all have athleticism and are extremely good at analyzing routes.

A guy like Ginn is going to get a big cushion because people fear his deep speed, so he's going to be open a lot on the quick outs once he hones his route running. He's going to see a lot of double-coverage (much of it zonal) for the deep outs. Ryan is going to need to hone his ability to hit the fast receiver in a position where it's not interceptable yet still catchable at the sidelines. I think he can do it, but it's not his strength IMHO. Much like Flacco, he's best hitting a target moving vertically (either towards him or away from him) and less stellar hitting a target moving laterally (at a right angle to him). Furthermore, timing patterns with fast receivers are going to demand that he get that right. So, I'm not prepared to anoint him the 2nd coming of Drew Bledsoe just yet ... and some of the comparisons made by his many fans are just silly. Ryan will never be a Marino--nor will anyone else--or a John Elway, nor a Jim Kelly IMHO, so right there let's be clear, he doesn't have Peyton Manning potential, and at best he might become an Eli Manning, though I don't expect it to happen.

This is one of those years I really wish both Ryan and Brohm had been in the Senior Bowl so we could see how A) Ryan does with top class WR talent running laterally, and B) how Brohm deals with a new system and teammates. I was quite disappointed to see Ryan skip the Senior Bowl, but even less impressed with Brohm's decision to follow suit.

Much of the reason we're hearing all this hype about Henne, Flacco, etc. is because they had the chance to show their stuff as the A team without being overshadowed in the media's eyes by the top rated prospects. Now the top rated guy on many QB lists, Ryan, is being automatically thrown up there with previous top rated QB prospects based solely on a great collegiate career and good height. That kinda scares me.

Marino was a freak of nature, tremendous arm, fantastic accuracy, world-class read-and-react skills, exceptional vision, ultra-quick release, and a born leader. His problem was his ego got the best of him as a senior and he forced way too many throws. He recognized double teams, etc., but he threw the ball anyway because he believed he was good enough to beat any coverage at any time. All Shula had to do was reel him back in a bit and explain when not to make those foolish throws, because deep down inside Marino already knew it was a bad choice on those throws.

With Ryan, I don't see that kind of arm or any of the other skills. I see a good read-and-react guy with good accuracy and an exceptional knowledge of his adversaries weaknesses and enough ability to exploit that. I see a born leader who wills his team to win, but not someone with surgical precision. I wonder how he'll do when the NFL window is very small and the 2.4 seconds of protection gives him precious little time to make a decision and get the ball away?

On the plus side I see the current administration securing a lot of big targets to greatlly increase the size of his window, and a lot fewer intermediate routes being called. The short routes underneath to big targets will be fine. The deep routes he's really good at, and with less intermediate routes being called (like deep outs), hopefully that minimizes his interception exposure. But still, I wish there were a QB available that didn't have as many of those types of questions.

 

[adamprez2003]

I haven't seen all his games. I've seen 3 full games and parts of others. But I've been doing this a long time and in my experience you don't need to see that many games to analyze a QB. A QB's skill set and performance shouldn't fluctuate that much otherwise that inconsistency is a red flag in itself. Sure everybody has bad games but the skill set should be evident regardless. This is not an unheard of premise. I remember Bill Walsh believed that you could analyze a QB just by watching one practice. I feel comfortable 3 games is more than sufficient to come to a reasonable evaluation on any QB. My conclusion is that he is a middle to late first round prospect. This is also about where I had Beck rated. I don't believe that Ryan has a greater chance of success than Beck. In fact, I think Beck's chance of success is greater than Ryan's. Ryan's accuracy is not on Beck's level. He throws risky passes that rely on his arm strength which is only ok. This resulted in too many ints at the college level and could result in even more in the pros. He also gets panicky under pressure (you may remember a similar conclusion from Dolfanmike's report from an opponent's defensive coach) and doesn't display the anticipation that Beck displays. I find these factors much more predictive of NFL success than the areas where Ryan has an advantage over Beck (height and pocket feel).

Honestly, once you say that you have Beck rated higher than Ryan I cant really take this post that seriously. Perhaps you're a QB guru in seeing something in a 2nd round prospect over a first round prospect. Perhaps its debatable but I just dont see it. The Ryan you describe is a mystery to me. Its not the QB I saw. What passes did you see that were "risky" and relied on his arm strength? You say this resulted in too many picks after watching 25% of his games? Yes he threw a few ****y interceptions but they werent that many. How many were due to his receivers tipping them in the air? How many were due to them being covered like a blanket and Ryan being forced to try to make a play to get his offense going and keeping them in the game? How many were thrown in desperation time when chances had to be taken? He has a flaw to his game and that's reading underneath coverage. That's it. A linebacker or the underneath safety sometimes get lost in his scanning the field and he will throw the occasional pass to them not seeing them. You say you been doing this a long time. Well then you know this is easily correctable by a QB Coach and it simply is a matter of correcting how he scans the field and in what order. Learning to read high to low is pretty simple stuff and considering what a sponge he is shouldnt make anyone worry that it can be corrected. Does he occasionally get too ****y. Yes but its been way overblown by people who havent seen enough of the guy play. I guess its been repeated so much on internet chat boards that its taken as gospel by some. The amount of times he throws a pick that's due to ****iness is less than one a game. If you think that's a red flag then you are looking for perfection in a world where it doesnt exist. Personally you need a bit of ****iness to be good. Its all in the amount though. A little is great, alot is bad. Having none however guarantees you'll be avergae to sucking. I wish Beck had shown a little more ****iness. That guy played scared last year, afraid to make a mistake and that lead to no mistakes at the beginning and no points. In the NFL you better be able to create something out of nothing or you'll never be any good

You say Beck is more accurate but once again I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. Ryan's accuracy is one of the reasons he's a top five pick. Just because a pass is incomplete doesnt mean it was an inaccurate throw. Anybody that has watched Ryan will come away feeling that he's one of the smartest QBs in terms of knowing when to throw it away and also one of the best at putting the ball where only his receivers can get it and the defenders cant. I think you severly underestimate how bad his receivers and offensive line were and dont take them into your analysis of Ryan's accuracy

As for the panicky line by the defensive coach, that's a joke considering the Oline's protection of him. He knew he had a bad oline and adjusted to it by being ready to move if the rush came strong. He's one of the best you'll see at buying an extra second or two in the pocket and his eyes never stop looking downfield while he's doing it unlike the running QBs. Go back to his junior year and you'll see a more comfortable Ryan even though he was playing with a broken foot. If you want to talk about panicky QBs our own Beck was the definition of that during his three game meltdown. Show me one game where Ryan panicked like that

 

[adamprez2003]

You gotta love Ryan's balls, I know Adam does. In fact I don't blame him. I've heard Matt's balls best described as jaw dropping :newera:



Sorry guys I just couldn't resist!

I heard that about you caneaddict. You just cant resist Ryan's balls :foundout:

 

[adamprez2003]

One thing I dont' really see being discussed about Matt Ryan is his out pattern throws. It takes a strong arm to throw a quick out or a deep out to the long side of the field because a quick and fast CB can jump those routes. Furthermore, it requires both vision and accuracy to pull the trigger on those throws and, more importantly, to know when not to pull the trigger on those throws. Now Ryan's receivers weren't exactly world-beaters, so they didn't have the physical ability to consistently get open for those throws. Most of the times he threw it his receiver was either well open or facing a CB that couldn't take advantage of jumping the route.

Now in Miami with a super-fast Ginn starting to become a top receiver, and it's a fair guess that we'll also be adding more receivers via FA and the draft over the next 2 offseasons, I think the Dolphins QB needs to have the ability to consistently make those throws, both the quick out and the deep out. I'm not saying Ryan cannot do it, I'm just saying that I'm not totally convinced about it. He is definitely more accurate throwing straight ahead than judging crossing patterns, so I wonder how he's going to do with true speed freaks like Ginn? He's accurate, but he sometimes throws near-misses that end up being caught because of receiver adjustments rather than perfect throws into a safe-window that require receiver adjustments. In the NFL, the CB play is lethal. Some have hands of stone, but they all have athleticism and are extremely good at analyzing routes.

A guy like Ginn is going to get a big cushion because people fear his deep speed, so he's going to be open a lot on the quick outs once he hones his route running. He's going to see a lot of double-coverage (much of it zonal) for the deep outs. Ryan is going to need to hone his ability to hit the fast receiver in a position where it's not interceptable yet still catchable at the sidelines. I think he can do it, but it's not his strength IMHO. Much like Flacco, he's best hitting a target moving vertically (either towards him or away from him) and less stellar hitting a target moving laterally (at a right angle to him). Furthermore, timing patterns with fast receivers are going to demand that he get that right. So, I'm not prepared to anoint him the 2nd coming of Drew Bledsoe just yet ... and some of the comparisons made by his many fans are just silly. Ryan will never be a Marino--nor will anyone else--or a John Elway, nor a Jim Kelly IMHO, so right there let's be clear, he doesn't have Peyton Manning potential, and at best he might become an Eli Manning, though I don't expect it to happen.

This is one of those years I really wish both Ryan and Brohm had been in the Senior Bowl so we could see how A) Ryan does with top class WR talent running laterally, and B) how Brohm deals with a new system and teammates. I was quite disappointed to see Ryan skip the Senior Bowl, but even less impressed with Brohm's decision to follow suit.

Much of the reason we're hearing all this hype about Henne, Flacco, etc. is because they had the chance to show their stuff as the A team without being overshadowed in the media's eyes by the top rated prospects. Now the top rated guy on many QB lists, Ryan, is being automatically thrown up there with previous top rated QB prospects based solely on a great collegiate career and good height. That kinda scares me.

Marino was a freak of nature, tremendous arm, fantastic accuracy, world-class read-and-react skills, exceptional vision, ultra-quick release, and a born leader. His problem was his ego got the best of him as a senior and he forced way too many throws. He recognized double teams, etc., but he threw the ball anyway because he believed he was good enough to beat any coverage at any time. All Shula had to do was reel him back in a bit and explain when not to make those foolish throws, because deep down inside Marino already knew it was a bad choice on those throws.

With Ryan, I don't see that kind of arm or any of the other skills. I see a good read-and-react guy with good accuracy and an exceptional knowledge of his adversaries weaknesses and enough ability to exploit that. I see a born leader who wills his team to win, but not someone with surgical precision. I wonder how he'll do when the NFL window is very small and the 2.4 seconds of protection gives him precious little time to make a decision and get the ball away?

On the plus side I see the current administration securing a lot of big targets to greatlly increase the size of his window, and a lot fewer intermediate routes being called. The short routes underneath to big targets will be fine. The deep routes he's really good at, and with less intermediate routes being called (like deep outs), hopefully that minimizes his interception exposure. But still, I wish there were a QB available that didn't have as many of those types of questions.

Great post. Well thought out and you bring up a lot of great points. There is one thing that I think you failed to mention that might or might not ease your apprehensions about Ryan. Ryan is great at presnap reads and anticipating the throw. He will throw before the cut and where it needs to be. You made a good point about it not being done more often and that's due to his receivers having a hard time seperating IMO. When you throw before the cut and your receiver gets no seperation on the cut that's a very easy interception if the cornerback is well positioned. IMO Jags kind of cut back on that due to the receiver talent. I think he'll be fine with the deep out. Where he will have problems is in those instances where a cannon is needed to zip a pass in a tight window like Marino used to do. Those kind of throw number less than 5 per game however and wont bite you unless you're in the 4th quarter and desperately need a score and downs and time are running out. QBs like Marino and Elway could get away with rifling the ball on covered routes. QBs like Montana, Brady couldnt but still found success because the sytmes and talent around them allowed it

 

[adamprez2003]

Ryan can make ridicules throws sometimes. Rolling left, throwing off his back foot down the middle was amazing. picturing him doing that in a fins uniform would be better.

:beer1: