Is It Talent or Coaching!!

[dolphan81]

id say the talent is above average. the eagles are decent because they have the absolute best fit at QB they could ask for.

I don't know about our talent level. You're right about Garcia though, he is an absolute perfect fit in that offense.

 

[DolfanISS]

I'm not saying Mangini is a horrible coach. I'm saying to attribute the Jets' current season to the immediate effect of Mangini's arrival is just as wrong as attributing the Saints' current season to the arrival of Sean Payton.

I agree with that. Pennington coming back didn't hurt and was probably as big a factor, if not bigger, than Mangini's arrival.

How exactly is that not the definition of "outplayed?" Were we not outplayed when the Jets came back in the "Monday Night Miracle?" If we weren't, then what the hell was that?

Well, in this years game the fins were outplayed for 3 out of 4 quarters, back in 2000 the Jets had to outplay Miami in the 4th quarter of that game and overtime to win.

Except nowhere did I call you out for attacking the coaching. I'm taking issue with your classification of other teams' coaching, in particular Eric Mangini and the New York Jets.

And

I was AGREEING WITH YOU! What, do I now have to blandly say "I agree" in order for that to register?

OK, but your initial response was:

I can't believe we're having these threads after not even two full seasons with Saban as our head coach.

Give it a flipping rest, people.

You may not have felt I was attcking the coaching, but it sure sounds like you were defending the coaching. I understand now that you agree with me but don't make it sound like I'm an idiot, by breaking it down barney style in your last post, when by reading your intial response I think you can understand where I was coming from.

 

[muscle979]

All three teams are pretty comparable. Buffalo and NY have superior QB talent right now which I think is the difference maker. Buffalo and NY also have a real number one receiver. Miami has a better D though.

 

[Maynard the Hammer]

All three teams are pretty comparable. Buffalo and NY have superior QB talent right now which I think is the difference maker. Buffalo and NY also have a real number one receiver. Miami has a better D though.

its true. both teams have had WRs that have broken our backs no matter what or how good our D has been....really over the past 5+ years it has been the case. from keyshawn to coles, moss to moulds and evans. only once that i can think of has a miami WR dominated in the way theirs has

speaking only of head-to-head of course, but worthwhile comparison

 

[Ekinger]

There is a very good reference point for this question. I'll get to that in a minute. Anyone that thinks Sean Peyton and Eric Mangini haven't been masterful and the most important piece of either teams success is just silly.

The Pats have never had an incredibly talented team top to bottom. Brady is a winner, an accurate passer who's arm strength has somehow increased over the last 5 years but he can't be considered in the same league with the elite athletes at that position. He's a superstar, but not an all time superstar talent wise. The answer is Bellichick. The guy always makes sure that he's got 4 guys that can play ever position as well as the guy in front of them. He makes the right personnel decisions putting the proper people where they need to be.

He's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the key to winning in the NFL is the "team". If every player on your team performs his job close to perfection, they don't need to be phenomenally talented, they rely on each other and the "team" concept to make up for any physical/athletic disparities.

Saban was very late this year. He was late in making appropriate changes to the secondary, the area of the game he is most familiar with. He was late in making offensive line switches. He was late in getting a 40% Daunte off the field, not that he was playing any worse than Joey, but if he hadn't played the first 5 or 6 games, he'd be playing now and we'd be going to the playoffs.

That throw of the flag was a metaphor for the way Saban has performed so far in the NFL. He's made decisions far too slowly. You have to give a team time to gel, but if they are failing in nearly every aspect of the game consistently, changes need to be made quickly.

I like Saban. I still believe he has the knowledge and ability to be highly successful. However, he has to make quicker personnel decisions, better staffing decisions and next year he must get this team far more prepared to start the football season. Being positive when there isn't any positive to speak of is silly. You don't have to be negative, but you shouldn't be positive either. If you are positive and things continue to go horribly, eventually you lose the confidence of everyone. They think you are clueless.

 

[jlfin]

It all comes down to poor Quarterback play. The best coaches in the world couldn't keep Joey from making dumb mistakes or cure poor accuaracy. If we had Brees or someone else decent we would be at the top of the division easily!

Not neccesarily. Vinnie Testaverde was pretty much a bust at Tampa and mediocre for the Ravens. He went to the NY Jets under Parcells and they coached him up to a near pro bowl level.
Shula took a team with Woodley at QB to the SB.
Coaching is very much a part of it.
I was listening to the radio the other day and they revealed a telling stat. Saban's record against 1st yr coaches this season. Off the top of my head he's 2-5, with wins only against Herm Edwards and Brad Childress (Vikings). He lost to Kubiak (Texans), Packers (?coach's name), Jauron (twice) and Mangini (we'll see monday).

 

[PhinsRock]

I'm not saying Mangini is a horrible coach. I'm saying to attribute the Jets' current season to the immediate effect of Mangini's arrival is just as wrong as attributing the Saints' current season to the arrival of Sean Payton.

How exactly is that not the definition of "outplayed?" Were we not outplayed when the Jets came back in the "Monday Night Miracle?" If we weren't, then what the hell was that?

Except nowhere did I call you out for attacking the coaching. I'm taking issue with your classification of other teams' coaching, in particular Eric Mangini and the New York Jets.

Agreed.

Injuries are indeed part of the game. Injuries that occur so frequently that your depth is rapidly depleted is a totally separate issue.



I was AGREEING WITH YOU! What, do I now have to blandly say "I agree" in order for that to register?

Would you two just please get a room!

Our DEFENSIVE coaching has been good, offensive coaching SUCKS, but lack of talent is our problem. We have very little of it thanks to Wannspiel.

 

[zonk4ever]

Saban & Mularkey rule. The coaching staff for the Dolphins is the biggest & BEST in the NFL. It's obvious that ,other than Zack And JT, all the players stink. Saban and Mularkey need at least 10 years to get this thing clicking and we need to support them no matter how bad we are because that's what losers do! :fire:

 

[SCall13]

It all comes down to poor Quarterback play. The best coaches in the world couldn't keep Joey from making dumb mistakes or cure poor accuaracy. If we had Brees or someone else decent we would be at the top of the division easily!

What a load of BS.


First off, the coaches make the decision on who to bring in at the position. Secondly, and most importantly, if your QB is a bit of an achilles heal (and our QBs both have been achilles heals) then it's up to the coaches to find a way to play to the offense strengths. So what does our coaching staff do? They throw the ball 60% of the time. Who's fault is that?

I'd venture to say that Miami has more talent than the Jets and the Bills. Coaching has hurt us in several games. There have been some questionable calls and questionable decisions. Quite a few of them. I'm at work, so I can't re-hash right now. But there is quite a lot of things to complain about. BUT, coaching is hardly the only problem with this team.

 

[Bandit]

Pssst ... it's the coaching ...

With 5 or even 6 rookies playing at times, this is certainly not the most talented Bills team in the 21st century, but it is certainly the best disciplined and most cohesive Bills team in years. As a Bills fan, I look at my team, and am amazed at the progress they've made in learning both new offensive and defensive systems. I'm also amazed at how JP Losman has been molded into a respectable NFL QB, how Willis McGahee has learned to block, how rookie Terrence Pennington is aquitting himself at RT ... These improvements just don't happen; it's coaches who teach the fundamentals and grow a "team" mentality.

 

[AquaAssasin]

I think it's a lack of talent. No matter who our quaterback has been they haven't been consistent. Our offensive line has also been inconsistent, but getting better. It seems the right side is good but the talent on the left (especially Jacox) is lacking. No matter your feelings about Chambes, the fact is we don't have a game changing WR. We don't have that Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson, or Steve Smith type wide out. On Defense, the biggest problem is the secondary. It seems our CB's just can't play the ball, which was evident in the Buffalo game.

Very true, its about talent. Alot of people thought we would get better after last year. In all honestly the team overachieved big time. Now this season we arent underachieving or overachieving. This team is where it should be untill we get more talented players on both sides of the ball.

It was evident that the defense in all senses is good but the offense is still bad and last year we progressed but took a step backward this year with a new OC and reshuffled line again. This offense isnt going to get anything done till we get more consistencty on all levels of the game, i.e. coaching, players and play calling. We need to get the players we need and let them play together so they can build a cohesive group. When that is done than they need to get a OC that can put the players in the best postition to succeed and score points everytime they get the ball. Third, the OC cant change every year. I honestly believe if Linehan was still here this offense wouldnt have been so bad and maybe Daunte would have done better (when he played).

It seeems that the system DC succeeded in was only linehans system due to the long ball play. I really hope the team can get this figured out. If not, we will be in for another long season.

 

[Ekinger]

Very true, its about talent. Alot of people thought we would get better after last year. In all honestly the team overachieved big time. Now this season we arent underachieving or overachieving. This team is where it should be untill we get more talented players on both sides of the ball.

It was evident that the defense in all senses is good but the offense is still bad and last year we progressed but took a step backward this year with a new OC and reshuffled line again. This offense isnt going to get anything done till we get more consistencty on all levels of the game, i.e. coaching, players and play calling. We need to get the players we need and let them play together so they can build a cohesive group. When that is done than they need to get a OC that can put the players in the best postition to succeed and score points everytime they get the ball. Third, the OC cant change every year. I honestly believe if Linehan was still here this offense wouldnt have been so bad and maybe Daunte would have done better (when he played).

It seeems that the system DC succeeded in was only linehans system due to the long ball play. I really hope the team can get this figured out. If not, we will be in for another long season.

If it's talent, then please explain to me how the Pats have won 3 superbowls in 6 years. They pick up old guys that have lost a step in free agency and they suddenly perform like they did 5 years ago. They continually let young, talented receivers go and once they are gone, they are never heard of again.

If you want to win multiple superbowls the only position that you need to have a lot of talent and intelligence at is QB. Other than that, you can coach the "team" well enough to get you to a superbowl. Bellichick has proved that without question.

 

[Finfan53]

All talent on any level needs to be coached to some degree or another.... not just on the field coaching but preparation in the film room

 

[Justasportsfan]

It all comes down to poor Quarterback play. The best coaches in the world couldn't keep Joey from making dumb mistakes or cure poor accuaracy. If we had Brees or someone else decent we would be at the top of the division easily!

In the bills' case, IMO it's coaching. Under Mularkey, JP was often was like a deer caught in headlights. He was allowed to take off at camp whenever the OL would breakdown under MM. Everytime he scrambled then, he was running and not looking downfield. Mularkey didn't help him one bit into becoming a pocket passer.

Under Fairchild, at camp even though it was a clear sack(although the D wasn't allowed to hit him of course) , JP was told to stay in the pocket and finish the play NO matter what. In the early part of the season he was often sacked because of it and Fairchild kept telling him to stay in there anyways. It's paying huge dividends for JP. He's more calm and composed in the pocket and learning how to read defenses. Instead of becoming a Flutie like Qb who would take off after the first sign of trouble, JP scrambles but still looks to make a throw downfield .

The coaches limited JP's playbook just so that he develops the right way. He also wasn't allowed to audible.Don't forget JP came from a small football program in Tulane where all he did was run for his life. Can't wait to see when they finally take the cuffs off and open up the playbook.

The same goes for our recievers. Guys like Reed couldn't so much under MM. He's thriving under Fairchild and Evans is looking more like a future great reciever. Price couldn't do much with the falcons, looks to be doing well. Royals was just a blocker at Washington, now he's turning into a decent recieving TE.

 

[tmny99]

I did fully read his post. There's nothing there worth taking seriously, particularly the segment on Mangini. The Jets are winning with smoke and mirrors, not because of solid play. Pennington is tiring out and they don't have a consistently effective running game. We had them beat when we played them earlier this season--the fact that Mare sucks this year is the only reason why we lost.

I don't know what game you were watching, but we had to make a come back to even make it a game. Plus we ran a stupid play on third down that Harrington threw away that forced us to take such a long FG. There are only three games where this team had anybody beat (Chicago, Detroit, and Pats second game)