Is Kyler Murray Fools Gold? | Page 8 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Is Kyler Murray Fools Gold?

Is Murry Fools Gold

  • I believe he is fools gold

    Votes: 30 28.6%
  • Not a chance .he's the real deal

    Votes: 29 27.6%
  • On the fence

    Votes: 36 34.3%
  • I'm not going on record yet

    Votes: 10 9.5%

  • Total voters
    105




Lots of stepping up with his eyes up.

This is a unique talent who can play the game however he wants to at the high school and college level and dominate, if someone is willing to take him off their board because they think he drops his eyes or he’s to small, great, they are out of the picture and are not accounting for how a talent like this can implement a more controlled type discipline in his game at the next level.

If I’m a coach I sure as heck want to start out with this skillset, and it’s obvious he runs to threaten, not because he innately drops his eyes once he feels pressure, you have just cited just a few examples of him doing the opposite that blows a major hole in that narrative.
 
The real question is, if he does fall to Miami at 13 and they pass on him what do you think of the FO? They could be geniuses or they could be morons depending on who you ask.
Here’s the problem. Kyler Murray WILL NOT fall to us at #13. If he falls to #12 the Packers will trade down while another team trades up to get him, just like Josh Rosen last year.

If we truly want KM, we will have to trade up to get him.
 
Well, I'm not going to start trying to cut up videos to show you the instances where he drops his eyes and bails the pocket at the first hint of pressure. I've already done that on other boards, and quite frankly, I don't have the time needed to go through and do it again. Also, I'm not going to do it because my previous experience with this is that the evidence I show gets summarily ignored by those who want to continue to elevate Murray to a status that he has not achieved.

I understand how that would be frustrating. Two people can see the same thing differently, and I'm sure there are examples of him dropping his eyes, because you can find examples of every QB doing this. We've seen Tom Brady duck at ghosts.

Big picture, as I see it, pocket presence and accuracy are major pluses for Murray.
 
I see it happen all the time, citing a small sample of something into a large generalization..Its how some missed on Mahomes in bad way.
 
I see it happen all the time, citing a small sample of something into a large generalization..Its how some missed on Mahomes in bad way.

True; however, Murray doesn't have tape from this year anywhere near as bad as Mahomes' WVU and ISU games. The biggest thing people - myself included - missed on Mahomes was his intelligence. He's very bright. His instincts when pressured/when the play breaks down, and his accuracy are mitigated by that intelligence, Reid's brilliant playcalling, his arm strength/talent, and the talent in his feet - very quick. Murray is much cleaner coming out.
 
Here’s the problem. Kyler Murray WILL NOT fall to us at #13. If he falls to #12 the Packers will trade down while another team trades up to get him, just like Josh Rosen last year.

If we truly want KM, we will have to trade up to get him.

im thinking that if we want him, we will move up to 8 to get him. The team I am honestly most worried about getting him is the Bengals.
 
True; however, Murray doesn't have tape from this year anywhere near as bad as Mahomes' WVU and ISU games. The biggest thing people - myself included - missed on Mahomes was his intelligence. He's very bright. His instincts when pressured/when the play breaks down, and his accuracy are mitigated by that intelligence, Reid's brilliant playcalling, his arm strength/talent, and the talent in his feet - very quick. Murray is much cleaner coming out.
Hmm, I see your point but I can’t agree with you there J, I mean I saw some of the undisciplined nature to his game as well but I think sometimes you have to look beyond that and project the discipline upon the prospect/skillset and then project what that would like like, if you know what I mean..Sometimes guys like Mahomes and Murray who have such elite talent level get caught up doing whatever they want,because they know they can’t be stopped, but I think that’s part of the whole evaluation and projection, I don’t take points off for things that I think can be fixed or evolve..

Can Murray be coached into drawing a line at the LOS and then use his elite agility to scramble and reset to throw in a more controlled way so that he can still find throws down the field, I believe he can because I’ve seen him do it a lot, do we want that in his game more than just taking off and running, sure, but I trust him when he runs..
 
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The finer points of Murray's game are really remarkable for any QB prospect - let alone one with such little experience. I haven't seen the criticism come up as much recently, but for a while people were saying that he didn't really go through progressions. My guess is that people were making assumptions based on his athletic ability and a few highlights, but I'll address it anyway. Of the top QB's to come out in the last 5-10 years, very few have gone to their 2nd and 3rd options as often as Murray. His willingness to test the middle of the field is also a feather in his cap. Often, a QB with a big arm and plus athleticism, will work the sidelines, where there's less going on, and it's easier to read, and if that's not available, they'll take off running. Murray is very comfortable with the chaos over the middle, and this is an area where he's clearly superior to Russell Wilson - despite having less experience.

There are multiple examples of him throwing before a guy is out of his break and/or before a window has opened. He had a bad INT vs Texas Tech on his first pass of the game that illustrates, as well as anything, that he's very much an anticipatory thrower. It was just a very bad play on his part. Those happen, and it's not the kind of INT you'd see from a guy like Marcus Mariota coming out of Oregon - who was much more basic in his plan of attack and who did not throw with anticipation. It's more like a bad INT you'd see from Drew Brees or, in recent years, J. Winston. If these types of INT's happened more regularly, I'd say there'd be some cause for concern, but most of his (few) INT's were deep balls that missed their mark. Given that he's one of the best deep-ball throwers in the game (and clearly the best in the last few years), those INT's don't concern me either.

The question with Murray, and the cause of disagreement, is, What do you consider an outlier? What are the common traits in high-end QB's, and what's just noise? I've said it before, but my biggest knock on Murray is experience. It'd be ideal to have at least two years of production. His size, to me, is noise. That's not to say it doesn't matter at all - just that he's already shown that he can overcome it and play at a higher level than everyone else.
 


The finer points of Murray's game are really remarkable for any QB prospect - let alone one with such little experience. I haven't seen the criticism come up as much recently, but for a while people were saying that he didn't really go through progressions. My guess is that people were making assumptions based on his athletic ability and a few highlights, but I'll address it anyway. Of the top QB's to come out in the last 5-10 years, very few have gone to their 2nd and 3rd options as often as Murray. His willingness to test the middle of the field is also a feather in his cap. Often, a QB with a big arm and plus athleticism, will work the sidelines, where there's less going on, and it's easier to read, and if that's not available, they'll take off running. Murray is very comfortable with the chaos over the middle, and this is an area where he's clearly superior to Russell Wilson - despite having less experience.

There are multiple examples of him throwing before a guy is out of his break and/or before a window has opened. He had a bad INT vs Texas Tech on his first pass of the game that illustrates, as well as anything, that he's very much an anticipatory thrower. It was just a very bad play on his part. Those happen, and it's not the kind of INT you'd see from a guy like Marcus Mariota coming out of Oregon - who was much more basic in his plan of attack and who did not throw with anticipation. It's more like a bad INT you'd see from Drew Brees or, in recent years, J. Winston. If these types of INT's happened more regularly, I'd say there'd be some cause for concern, but most of his (few) INT's were deep balls that missed their mark. Given that he's one of the best deep-ball throwers in the game (and clearly the best in the last few years), those INT's don't concern me either.

The question with Murray, and the cause of disagreement, is, What do you consider an outlier? What are the common traits in high-end QB's, and what's just noise? I've said it before, but my biggest knock on Murray is experience. It'd be ideal to have at least two years of production. His size, to me, is noise. That's not to say it doesn't matter at all - just that he's already shown that he can overcome it and play at a higher level than everyone else.



Very solid post. Also, multiple years of experience at the QB position is becoming less and less important than it used to be. I see kids every year with 4 years of starting experience that will never take a snap in the NFL, or will only be average at best - and are much more flawed than the kid with 1 year of experience.

It's just an old Bill Parcells 'truism' that no longer applies to the quarterback position coming out of college. With the 7-on-7 camps in high school now that previously didn't exist, along with the way the QB position is played and coached now - a one year starter equates to what a 3 year starter used to be in terms of the reps they get. They're much more advanced passers now at a younger age than they were in Parcells' day. He passed up Matt Ryan because he was only really a 2 year starter in college. He didn't fit into Parcells' "must be a 3 year starter" category. One year of starting experience can certainly be something you consider, but should never be a reason why you'd not draft a talented player.

Eventually the game passes us all by. It's probably not too far from passing me by.
 
Very solid post. Also, multiple years of experience at the QB position is becoming less and less important than it used to be. I see kids every year with 4 years of starting experience that will never take a snap in the NFL, or will only be average at best - and are much more flawed than the kid with 1 year of experience.

It's just an old Bill Parcells 'truism' that no longer applies to the quarterback position coming out of college. With the 7-on-7 camps in high school now that previously didn't exist, along with the way the QB position is played and coached now - a one year starter equates to what a 3 year starter used to be in terms of the reps they get. They're much more advanced passers now at a younger age than they were in Parcells' day. He passed up Matt Ryan because he was only really a 2 year starter in college. He didn't fit into Parcells' "must be a 3 year starter" category. One year of starting experience can certainly be something you consider, but should never be a reason why you'd not draft a talented player.

Eventually the game passes us all by. It's probably not too far from passing me by.

Appreciate it, Slimm, and I don't see the game passing you by any time soon. Your ability to catch guys so early in the process still amazes me, and you get my vote for best Draft Poster every year. I enjoy the love I get from everyone, and everything is subjective, but I can't touch the value you add to this forum. Not being humble - justs facts.
 
I said it before when I originally went through all those mountains of footage in order to isolate the clips for that video...the NUANCES of Kyler Murray's game are what is going to see him rise up the board. As you say, no shortage of him progressing through the field. No hesitation about using the middle. And his communication pre-snap, the way he gets everyone organized and lined up and all on the same page at a high speed, is an underrated but important part of the game.

But I think that, of all the nuances, the thing that probably got me most were eyes before the snap, his anticipation and identification of blitzes.

These blitzes are not necessarily complex or anything like that. But to see them after only the barest of movements, and then make the correct adjustment, use your feet to help out the line, and deliver the ball? How often have we seen Miami quarterbacks NOT do this?



And here's another one:



The above examples are some of the nuances you see when you actually go through the mountain of video and analyze it.

The other thing I think you come to appreciate when you do all this is the coaching. I often find that I end up uncovering an underrated coaching prospect like Matt Canada at Pitt or Dino Babers at Eastern Illinois when I go through these exercises.

Nobody's "discovering" Lincoln Riley, to be clear. But I did feel like I started to get some appreciation for what makes Lincoln Riley special. I mean any Air Raid inspired guy can use Choice and Mesh. Riley definitely has a lot more depth.

This will actually seem contrary to J-Off's point about Kyler getting to 2nd and 3rd reads, and I don't think that's true because Kyler DOES actually get to those 2nd and 3rd reads with frequency just as J-Off says, but one of the neat things I've come to appreciate about Riley's offense is the way he basically makes a structured, first read type of play LOOK and TIME like a progression.

They will throw shallow crosses that look like mesh concept, look as if there is a read progression, except it's not. It's a screen. The wide receiver bends his shallow drag route back to the line of scrimmage or slightly behind it, which makes it legal for some of the other receivers or the offensive linemen to have been up the field blocking. But the way it played out, it really looked like a drop and read progression, and got everyone moving.

They do a lot of draw plays that are like that as well. Everyone's seen draw plays that start out for a split second looking and dropping like a pass play. But Lincoln Riley REALLY pushes the limits of that revelation in order to get maximum movement by the defense. Every wide receiver will be running a pass route, and Kyler Murray will be reading them with his eyes until you're pretty sure he's actually making a read and this is an RPO. But it's not. The RB is heading straight up the gut, finding the Mike, and blocking the sh-t out of him at the second level. If this were anything BUT a quarterback draw, there would be flags. But it was always a draw. It just really pushed the limits of looking like something else before the revelation of what it actually was.

With Murray at the helm, Riley gets to choose between all kinds of neat things in the run game, be it option pitches, RPOs, zone-reads, QB draws, etc. And he made full use of all of them. I particularly liked the way Murray would make smart adjustments to the spacing pre-snap, signal the wide receivers to get their splits out wider, etc...and how this would always help the run plays be more effective.
 
Appreciate it, Slimm, and I don't see the game passing you by any time soon. Your ability to catch guys so early in the process still amazes me, and you get my vote for best Draft Poster every year. I enjoy the love I get from everyone, and everything is subjective, but I can't touch the value you add to this forum. Not being humble - justs facts.

Well I usually don't ever cast a vote in those things because I wouldn't be able to decide who to vote for. But you deserve every bit of recognition you get on this forum. Your eye for talent and ability to get your point across is truly remarkable. The draft forum will be in excellent hands one day.
 
Well I usually don't ever cast a vote in those things because I wouldn't be able to decide who to vote for. But you deserve every bit of recognition you get on this forum. Your eye for talent and ability to get your point across is truly remarkable. The draft forum will be in excellent hands one day.

This is like a scene from a movie.

I love when people have mutual respect for each other, the world needs more of it.
 


The finer points of Murray's game are really remarkable for any QB prospect - let alone one with such little experience. I haven't seen the criticism come up as much recently, but for a while people were saying that he didn't really go through progressions. My guess is that people were making assumptions based on his athletic ability and a few highlights, but I'll address it anyway. Of the top QB's to come out in the last 5-10 years, very few have gone to their 2nd and 3rd options as often as Murray. His willingness to test the middle of the field is also a feather in his cap. Often, a QB with a big arm and plus athleticism, will work the sidelines, where there's less going on, and it's easier to read, and if that's not available, they'll take off running. Murray is very comfortable with the chaos over the middle, and this is an area where he's clearly superior to Russell Wilson - despite having less experience.

There are multiple examples of him throwing before a guy is out of his break and/or before a window has opened. He had a bad INT vs Texas Tech on his first pass of the game that illustrates, as well as anything, that he's very much an anticipatory thrower. It was just a very bad play on his part. Those happen, and it's not the kind of INT you'd see from a guy like Marcus Mariota coming out of Oregon - who was much more basic in his plan of attack and who did not throw with anticipation. It's more like a bad INT you'd see from Drew Brees or, in recent years, J. Winston. If these types of INT's happened more regularly, I'd say there'd be some cause for concern, but most of his (few) INT's were deep balls that missed their mark. Given that he's one of the best deep-ball throwers in the game (and clearly the best in the last few years), those INT's don't concern me either.

The question with Murray, and the cause of disagreement, is, What do you consider an outlier? What are the common traits in high-end QB's, and what's just noise? I've said it before, but my biggest knock on Murray is experience. It'd be ideal to have at least two years of production. His size, to me, is noise. That's not to say it doesn't matter at all - just that he's already shown that he can overcome it and play at a higher level than everyone else.


excellent post and only continues to get me more excited about the player.

For myself, hundreds of hours every year to get it right and be accurate about prospects..I’ve studied a piece that completely correlates to Kyler Murray and 100 percent confirms my philosophy in scouting these players, and very inspiring..I’m going to fuse the two properties to come to my final conclusion about Murray.

Why I believe he will be a superstar at the next level.

For lack of a better term, in a way, Kyler Murray has had to learn how to play the game with a disability, that disability totally influenced and made him change the way he played the game, he realized this limitation, and therefore, developed a style of play to defeat whoever he was up against, something only he and a few others that have ever lived understand..

Some folks are discussing structure and are worried about discipline and his lack of it, I am not, actually, I embrace his freedom and style of play, some will look at it an undisciplined, I believe that creativity is a part of what’s going to make him great..he is the antithesis of structure as a foundation of his play and how he learned the game, and what happened?? he dominated each level so far, This is why the ceiling is so very high, if the evaluator doesn’t account for some discipline at the next level and envision what the game will look like then, bad mistake on that person's part.

Kudos to his coaches thus far that have allowed him to play his style.

As someone who talks about counter athleticism a lot, it is a key component to successful evaluations imo, and I know it when I see it, I have identified it, the phrases “intuitive speed ” and “athletic reactionary quickness” are these special traits.These are the reasons why some great players reach the pinnacle, even though they are not the biggest nor the strongest..

This highly important trait is incredibly vivid when it comes to watching Kyler Play, in all phases it’s evident, including one of the biggest concerns I see here talked about, Wayne Gretzky’s father once said, my son never gets hurt because of this, “instead of forcing against a hit, he rolls with it.” now in my words he consciously prepares for the blow with intuitive quickness and absorbs in a way where the force is denied.

Counter athleticism is how quickly the player responds cognitively and athletically to a movement by the opposing player..

In a game that is played at such a fast pace, this reactionary speed and intuitiveness is crucial to reach the highest level.

Kyler Murray has a lethal combination of traits that are as rare as it gets.

1)Work ethic.. looks like an obsessive compulsive disorder type, almost robotive.

2)An ability to learn quickly, we’ve heard it from multiple sources about his cognitive abilities, “highly intelligent” “ quick learner”

3)Elite position specific agility and mechanics..

Going against such a supremely athletic human being with this much position specific talent, and this much intellect is a bad choice.
 
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