It’s Hard Settling A Qb Competition When Neither Player Steps Up | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

It’s Hard Settling A Qb Competition When Neither Player Steps Up

Rosen is seeing shadows until he regains his confidence after getting destroyed by the Cardinals offensive line he better sitting on the bench.
 
You expecting him to play in 2020 then?

I have no expectations about 2020 at this time, with the exception of keeping this coaching staff together for a number of years. Ask me again at the end of the season and I'll be in a position to give you an answer that I can support with some history from 2019.
 
I'm not sure how long of a "long view" you can afford to take on Rosen. Granted you want to put him out there when he's ready. But you also want to get a good enough look at him to determine if you have something there. My initial impression is no! At least not franchise QB type stuff.

The other consideration here, as i see it, is maybe Flores just want to win as many games as possible. If that's the case, which i suspected, then he's likely more inclined to go with Fitz. Hate him or love him in the short-term you're probably more likely to generate wins with the Vet over the Rookie.

The GM maybe thinking tank for Tua or Herbert or Fromm but Flores is saying "Screw that!" I'm going to to try and make it to the playoffs...

You’d have to be a moron not to want to give Rosen a longer look, Flores will be here next year regardless
 
I'm not sure how long of a "long view" you can afford to take on Rosen. Granted you want to put him out there when he's ready. But you also want to get a good enough look at him to determine if you have something there. My initial impression is no! At least not franchise QB type stuff.

The other consideration here, as i see it, is maybe Flores just want to win as many games as possible. If that's the case, which i suspected, then he's likely more inclined to go with Fitz. Hate him or love him in the short-term you're probably more likely to generate wins with the Vet over the Rookie.

The GM maybe thinking tank for Tua or Herbert or Fromm but Flores is saying "Screw that!" I'm going to to try and make it to the playoffs...

Fans need to get it out of their heads that the Dolphins made this trade thinking that it had a legitimate potential for inducing them to bypass the QB position at the top of the 2020 draft.

That was never on the table. At least, not in a realistic sense. More like, "Yeah sure if the chips fall a certain way I suppose it's technically possible..."
 
This article is just hot garbage.
Rosen has played great and had many dropped passes last week that were easy catches.
He is our starter no questions asked.
Have you ever watched another quarterback before? I feel like your context for that comment is ridiculous out of whack.
 
Fans need to get it out of their heads that the Dolphins made this trade thinking that it had a legitimate potential for inducing them to bypass the QB position at the top of the 2020 draft.

That was never on the table. At least, not in a realistic sense. More like, "Yeah sure if the chips fall a certain way I suppose it's technically possible..."

That’s one hell of an expensive “technically possible” gamble to make with a 2nd round pick. Where not even going to get into Chase over-there in New England.
 
That’s one hell of an expensive “technically possible” gamble to make with a 2nd round pick. Where not even going to get into Chase over-there in New England.

They didn't pay a 2nd round pick because they thought it was a legitimate possibility.

He's a developmental quarterback. We can't suddenly act like we're completely unfamiliar with the idea of taking developmental quarterbacks in the draft. Patriots have been doing it for years, most often in the 3rd round. And 3rd round is exactly the price Chris Grier kept trying to get the Cardinals to take for Josh Rosen, but in the final minute he decided to up the price to a late-2nd round pick just to get the thing done and out of the way.

Many of us were clamoring for the Dolphins to take a developmental guy in this year's draft, e.g. Will Grier, Easton Stick, etc. Would either of those guys automatically have started in 2019 with the idea they might be super awesome and induce us to avoid the 2020 QB market? No. They would've also been developmental guys, and you develop those guys the way you see most fit to get them to be the best player they can. That's what they're doing with Josh Rosen, and they have continuously, repeatedly hammered into our thick skulls that the best way to do that is NOT to just hand him the starting job.

They've got 3 years to try and develop Josh Rosen into the best asset he can be. And if they do it, history shows that QBs are tradeable commodities. In the words of NFL executives, who say these things to guys like Adam Schefter, "quarterbacks are currency".

And even if the 3 years run up before they can get someone to trade for Rosen, if he DOES end up a good quarterback, then when he hits free agency in 2022, he ends up signing a big contract, and Miami will get a compensatory pick for him in 2023. Meanwhile they've gotten 3 years of backup QB from a guy for the low price of $2 million (total). A team normally pays $4 to $6 million per year for a capable backup.
 
They didn't pay a 2nd round pick because they thought it was a legitimate possibility.

He's a developmental quarterback. We can't suddenly act like we're completely unfamiliar with the idea of taking developmental quarterbacks in the draft. Patriots have been doing it for years, most often in the 3rd round. And 3rd round is exactly the price Chris Grier kept trying to get the Cardinals to take for Josh Rosen, but in the final minute he decided to up the price to a late-2nd round pick just to get the thing done and out of the way.

Many of us were clamoring for the Dolphins to take a developmental guy in this year's draft, e.g. Will Grier, Easton Stick, etc. Would either of those guys automatically have started in 2019 with the idea they might be super awesome and induce us to avoid the 2020 QB market? No. They would've also been developmental guys, and you develop those guys the way you see most fit to get them to be the best player they can. That's what they're doing with Josh Rosen, and they have continuously, repeatedly hammered into our thick skulls that the best way to do that is NOT to just hand him the starting job.

They've got 3 years to try and develop Josh Rosen into the best asset he can be. And if they do it, history shows that QBs are tradeable commodities. In the words of NFL executives, who say these things to guys like Adam Schefter, "quarterbacks are currency".

And even if the 3 years run up before they can get someone to trade for Rosen, if he DOES end up a good quarterback, then when he hits free agency in 2022, he ends up signing a big contract, and Miami will get a compensatory pick for him in 2023. Meanwhile they've gotten 3 years of backup QB from a guy for the low price of $2 million (total). A team normally pays $4 to $6 million per year for a capable backup.

Nice! I didn’t think about it from that perspective.
 
They didn't pay a 2nd round pick because they thought it was a legitimate possibility.

He's a developmental quarterback. We can't suddenly act like we're completely unfamiliar with the idea of taking developmental quarterbacks in the draft. Patriots have been doing it for years, most often in the 3rd round. And 3rd round is exactly the price Chris Grier kept trying to get the Cardinals to take for Josh Rosen, but in the final minute he decided to up the price to a late-2nd round pick just to get the thing done and out of the way.

Many of us were clamoring for the Dolphins to take a developmental guy in this year's draft, e.g. Will Grier, Easton Stick, etc. Would either of those guys automatically have started in 2019 with the idea they might be super awesome and induce us to avoid the 2020 QB market? No. They would've also been developmental guys, and you develop those guys the way you see most fit to get them to be the best player they can. That's what they're doing with Josh Rosen, and they have continuously, repeatedly hammered into our thick skulls that the best way to do that is NOT to just hand him the starting job.

They've got 3 years to try and develop Josh Rosen into the best asset he can be. And if they do it, history shows that QBs are tradeable commodities. In the words of NFL executives, who say these things to guys like Adam Schefter, "quarterbacks are currency".

And even if the 3 years run up before they can get someone to trade for Rosen, if he DOES end up a good quarterback, then when he hits free agency in 2022, he ends up signing a big contract, and Miami will get a compensatory pick for him in 2023. Meanwhile they've gotten 3 years of backup QB from a guy for the low price of $2 million (total). A team normally pays $4 to $6 million per year for a capable backup.

I think this is a valid take on the organization's perspective. I would add that there is still the possibility that Rosen can develop to be The Guy for us, outplaying a QB picked high next year. It's not like 1st Round QB busts are an anomaly...this gives further options in the event our guy next year does not come through. Wish they could have done it for a 3, but it was well played with the trade for the 2020 2nd. Bottom line is that there are positive scenarios for us that don't mandate Rosen starting right now.
 
My disagreement with the trade was mostly on the basis of the idea that Rosen could induce them to avoid the 2020 QBs. I don't believe that's going to happen. I don't believe it ever had a legitimate chance of happening. I think a lot of people were deluding themselves on the chances of that happening.

And thus I'm happy that, based on the way the Dolphins have played everything out, they appear pretty rational in that regard. They're not delusional.

The question is are you going to recover 2nd round value in the long run if you think of him as a developmental asset. And honestly, while I still think the answer is No, I will say it's pretty close. IF he plays ball with you on being a backup for the next 3 years, which I think is maybe a little bit bigger IF than people think because I think he's got a touch of temperamentalness to him, but if that happens and he's a capable backup, then right there you've very nearly recovered that 2nd round value just by looking at the disparity between the $2 million you pay him versus the $12 to $18 million you'd have to pay a more proven veteran to be the backup. Provided he actually proves to be a capable backup, which is another big IF.

And if he does reach that level, even if that's all he gets to, when he hits free agency and gets that $7.5 million per year contract (attractive backup's wages in 2022, adjusted for capflation), then that would make Miami eligible for a compensatory pick which would probably make us whole on a net-net basis.

But there's also upside if he's able to generate a 'buzz' and have a few great performances in preseason and games. His pedigree matters. There's a lot that went into that draft standing and none of it is just forgotten. Josh Rosen doesn't have to end up a legit franchise guy in order to induce a trade. Did A.J. Feeley end up being a legit franchise guy? Did Matt Cassel? Hell, will Jimmy Garoppolo end up that?

So it's going to be close. I'm always going to think about Juan Thornhill and Chase Winovich, but when everything nets out in the end, it wouldn't be shocking if Josh Rosen ends up giving them return on investment. Just not the returns some people had in mind (e.g. jackpot).
 
I think this is a valid take on the organization's perspective. I would add that there is still the possibility that Rosen can develop to be The Guy for us, outplaying a QB picked high next year. It's not like 1st Round QB busts are an anomaly...this gives further options in the event our guy next year does not come through. Wish they could have done it for a 3, but it was well played with the trade for the 2020 2nd. Bottom line is that there are positive scenarios for us that don't mandate Rosen starting right now.

Absolutely there is that chance. That's why I have brought up the RG3/Cousins example several times.
 
IMO the "debate" seems silly. For a time deferred R2 we got Rosen (and I think we used a 5th in the R2 swap)
for low $$ -- high upside. That's a GOOD business deal. Period. End of story. Of course there's NO guarantee.
By my gawd -- that's true in EVERY situation. In addition, we did NOT sign a contract excluding our draft options
in 2020. So of course QB remains an option. In addition, you could make the case the deferred R2 actually
gave us additional draft currency in 20 if we need it to move up for a targeted QB. So in effect, the Rosen deal
only added to our possibilities -- NO deletions or exclusions whatsoever.
 
They didn't pay a 2nd round pick because they thought it was a legitimate possibility.

He's a developmental quarterback. We can't suddenly act like we're completely unfamiliar with the idea of taking developmental quarterbacks in the draft. Patriots have been doing it for years, most often in the 3rd round. And 3rd round is exactly the price Chris Grier kept trying to get the Cardinals to take for Josh Rosen, but in the final minute he decided to up the price to a late-2nd round pick just to get the thing done and out of the way.

Many of us were clamoring for the Dolphins to take a developmental guy in this year's draft, e.g. Will Grier, Easton Stick, etc. Would either of those guys automatically have started in 2019 with the idea they might be super awesome and induce us to avoid the 2020 QB market? No. They would've also been developmental guys, and you develop those guys the way you see most fit to get them to be the best player they can. That's what they're doing with Josh Rosen, and they have continuously, repeatedly hammered into our thick skulls that the best way to do that is NOT to just hand him the starting job.

They've got 3 years to try and develop Josh Rosen into the best asset he can be. And if they do it, history shows that QBs are tradeable commodities. In the words of NFL executives, who say these things to guys like Adam Schefter, "quarterbacks are currency".

And even if the 3 years run up before they can get someone to trade for Rosen, if he DOES end up a good quarterback, then when he hits free agency in 2022, he ends up signing a big contract, and Miami will get a compensatory pick for him in 2023. Meanwhile they've gotten 3 years of backup QB from a guy for the low price of $2 million (total). A team normally pays $4 to $6 million per year for a capable backup.

Lots of good points here; I'm thinking that much of our disagreement with Rosen is semantic. Most QB coming out of college are developmental. There are very few college QB who come out and light it up as rookies. I think the upside on Rosen is considerably higher than that of Grier, Stick, etc...and I still think the chance of his success is higher than you're implying. I certainly like his future in the league better than Josh Allen's.

However, I think the 2020 QB options are considerably better than they've been in years - working under the assumption that Tua, Herbert, Fromm and Love all come out. Even if Rosen plays well and shows signs of growth, unless he shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the QB of the future for Miami, they need to draft a first round QB.

What I really don't understand is the narrative that trading for Rosen was a waste. It simply wasn't. I'll go even further than that...Josh Rosen never should have been available to Miami. Steve Keim should have heard the report that when Rosen said, "If you draft Kyler Murray, I'll just beat him in camp," and said "GOOD." He should have let them compete, the better QB starts, the worse one develops. Now, if Murray bombs, and Rosen flourishes, Steve Keim is going to be out of a job next year.

There is absolutely no reason, (again, short of Rosen completely tearing it up) to not draft a QB in round 1 next year, let Rosen compete for the job, and the loser is the backup. At worst, you've got a serviceable QB and a more than serviceable backup for a bargain price. Hopefully, you've got your Franchise QB and a serviceable backup. Best case? You have two QB who have shown franchise potential, and one of them is a very desirable trade target for another team.
 
Get excited, Dolphins fans...there’s a chance Rosen could become a capable backup QB.
 
They didn't pay a 2nd round pick because they thought it was a legitimate possibility.

He's a developmental quarterback. We can't suddenly act like we're completely unfamiliar with the idea of taking developmental quarterbacks in the draft. Patriots have been doing it for years, most often in the 3rd round. And 3rd round is exactly the price Chris Grier kept trying to get the Cardinals to take for Josh Rosen, but in the final minute he decided to up the price to a late-2nd round pick just to get the thing done and out of the way.

Many of us were clamoring for the Dolphins to take a developmental guy in this year's draft, e.g. Will Grier, Easton Stick, etc. Would either of those guys automatically have started in 2019 with the idea they might be super awesome and induce us to avoid the 2020 QB market? No. They would've also been developmental guys, and you develop those guys the way you see most fit to get them to be the best player they can. That's what they're doing with Josh Rosen, and they have continuously, repeatedly hammered into our thick skulls that the best way to do that is NOT to just hand him the starting job.

They've got 3 years to try and develop Josh Rosen into the best asset he can be. And if they do it, history shows that QBs are tradeable commodities. In the words of NFL executives, who say these things to guys like Adam Schefter, "quarterbacks are currency".

And even if the 3 years run up before they can get someone to trade for Rosen, if he DOES end up a good quarterback, then when he hits free agency in 2022, he ends up signing a big contract, and Miami will get a compensatory pick for him in 2023. Meanwhile they've gotten 3 years of backup QB from a guy for the low price of $2 million (total). A team normally pays $4 to $6 million per year for a capable backup.

I’ve always enjoyed your takes, and that’s why I was confused about your thoughts on Rosen. It seemed like you where dug in and just against the possibility of him ever becoming a good QB and it was a wasted move. This makes complete sense and I totally agree. My apologies for being snippy earlier.
 
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