J-off's Sideways Board For Miami | Page 10 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

J-off's Sideways Board For Miami

Can't say I'm excited or overly optimistic RE Rosen but it sure seems the team
conducted significant due diligence on him and therefore must believe his rookie
season was not indicative of his PRO potential -- and even more important --
I assume they believe his "leadership" issues are either overblown or resolvable.

Not gonna be a hypocrite and trash the dude any further until he's given an honest
chance to demonstrate some chops and prove the decision was a good one. But my
expectations are tempered by the fact he was available and it seems we were the
only team in any serious negotiation. So even with the deferred R2 (which really
takes the sting out of this for me) I think we had more leverage than we used.

That said, I do think this was a rather bold move for our FO -- and I don't find it
to be the "safest" play they had available. We could have stayed at 48 and grabbed
McCoy (a very good, safe bet) and perhaps went into R3 a little more aggressively.
Add to that we'd have an R4 and...

We'll see how it turns out.
 
If we we're last year's team with RT the Rosen trade would make sense. Seeing we will be sitting on the number 1 pick next year in a QB rich draft this makes no sense. If Rosen bounces back in best case scenario we most likely will have a QB controversy never a good thing.
We needed 2 oline in this draft to attempt to protect these QBs.
 
phintim said:
If we we're last year's team with RT the Rosen trade would make sense. Seeing we will be sitting on the number 1 pick next year in a QB rich draft this makes no sense. If Rosen bounces back in best case scenario we most likely will have a QB controversy never a good thing.
We needed 2 oline in this draft to attempt to protect these QBs.
Click to expand...

Gotta assume we go hog wild UDFA @OL and probably DB as well...

That and the few remaining picks we have -- good opportunity for our new revised
scouting staff and brass to find some hidden gems and prove their worth!

Bottom line -- it sure would be great to get some unexpected performance
outside of the premium area...
 
I said it Friday before the Rosen Trade, it didnt make any sense to take Wilkins if they had plans to trade for Rosen. Of course, they traded for Rosen later that evening. Why do you take Wilkins when our offensive line is Tunsil and a bunch of blah all the way around? We just saw what happens to Rosen when he has shotty oline play. Well hes gonna get it again this year with Miami. The Rosen trade makes SOME sense from a value aspect but the circumstances he was taken under make none.

Guard play should have been upgraded during free agency and your top graded offensive lineman should have been taken in the first to give this kid a chance to succeed. Or should have just kept James. This trade didnt just materialize the past week. They knew he was on the chopping block in Arizona for months. They didnt think they should have built around him a little better? I feel like he has little chance to get out from under the "well he has to show us something this year or we got the 2020 draft" shadow. Not fair really but down deep I feel like that's the plan for Miami. It has given fans hope for 2019 when in reality this will probably go just as bad as last year for him. Call me a conspiracy theorist or whatever but thats what I believe. If they thought he was the QB for the future they would have done some better planning in my opinion. Or maybe they are just terrible at their job.
 
Rowdy1972 said:
I said it Friday before the Rosen Trade, it didnt make any sense to take Wilkins if they had plans to trade for Rosen. Of course, they traded for Rosen later that evening. Why do you take Wilkins when our offensive line is Tunsil and a bunch of blah all the way around? We just saw what happens to Rosen when he has shotty oline play. Well hes gonna get it again this year with Miami. The Rosen trade makes SOME sense from a value aspect but the circumstances he was taken under make none.

Guard play should have been upgraded during free agency and your top graded offensive lineman should have been taken in the first to give this kid a chance to succeed. Or should have just kept James. This trade didnt just materialize the past week. They knew he was on the chopping block in Arizona for months. They didnt think they should have built around him a little better? I feel like he has little chance to get out from under the "well he has to show us something this year or we got the 2020 draft" shadow. Not fair really but down deep I feel like that's the plan for Miami. It has given fans hope for 2019 when in reality this will probably go just as bad as last year for him. Call me a conspiracy theorist or whatever but thats what I believe. If they thought he was the QB for the future they would have done some better planning in my opinion. Or maybe they are just terrible at their job.
Click to expand...


I agree with you 100%.

That said, I hear they're going to be aggressive in post May 8th "street free agent" period, as well as post June 1st when/if guys get cut.
 
Rowdy1972 said:
I said it Friday before the Rosen Trade, it didnt make any sense to take Wilkins if they had plans to trade for Rosen. Of course, they traded for Rosen later that evening. Why do you take Wilkins when our offensive line is Tunsil and a bunch of blah all the way around? We just saw what happens to Rosen when he has shotty oline play. Well hes gonna get it again this year with Miami. The Rosen trade makes SOME sense from a value aspect but the circumstances he was taken under make none.

Guard play should have been upgraded during free agency and your top graded offensive lineman should have been taken in the first to give this kid a chance to succeed. Or should have just kept James. This trade didnt just materialize the past week. They knew he was on the chopping block in Arizona for months. They didnt think they should have built around him a little better? I feel like he has little chance to get out from under the "well he has to show us something this year or we got the 2020 draft" shadow. Not fair really but down deep I feel like that's the plan for Miami. It has given fans hope for 2019 when in reality this will probably go just as bad as last year for him. Call me a conspiracy theorist or whatever but thats what I believe. If they thought he was the QB for the future they would have done some better planning in my opinion. Or maybe they are just terrible at their job.
Click to expand...

Agree with you. I posted this yesterday on the VIP forum.

I totally respect the opinions of people who love the Wilkins pick. This is not a Charles Harris situation. I like Wilkins and did give him a Top 40 value for Miami, and that is factoring in the urgency I feel for the Offense (was targeting 2020, but Rosen made it more urgent. I do like Shaq Calhoun as a developmental OG, and he's much closer to the NE OG's in terms of physical profile - particularly Shaq Mason, but my key thing is that until you fix the Offense enough to give the new QB - maybe just Rosen, maybe Rosen and a 2020 or 2021 QB - a legitimate chance to succeed, the D has to take a back seat.

While Arizona did a poor job of maximizing Rosen's value (as a player and asset), I love what they did in the Draft to benefit Murray. Adding three different types of receivers (A. Isabella, H. Butler, K. Johnson) - all with at least one year of high-end production, two with rare physical tools. I'm really excited to see what Arizona does with Isabella and Butler. Murray throws one of the best deep balls you'll ever see (similar to Russell Wilson in that regard), and AI and HB are two of the best deep threats in the class. They also used a pick to trade for RT Marcus Gilbert, and he should be a big help. Of course I could be wrong, and they all could bust, but I think that Offense has a solid chance to put up 30+ PPG in the near future.

Prior to the Draft (and Rosen trade), I wanted to solidify the OL as much as possible, because I wanted Tua/emerging QB with 2020's first pick, but I wanted a falling WR with the 2nd pick, because that class looks AMAZING at WR. If Flores and co can bring some of that NE mid/late-round OL magic, I'd be glad to be wrong, but for most of the league, it's harder to find quality starters outside of the Round 1 and 2. Given what's at stake, as nothing is more important than developing a QB and an Offense that plays to his strengths, I wouldn't risk relying only on mid/late-round players. With 2020 being my target for QB, I thought Miami should push OL hard in 2019 so that they could take advantage of one of the two or three best WR classes of the decade. Now that we have to evaluate a QB in 2019, it feels like Rosen and Miami could be starting from behind/piecing together an Offense as they go. A talented OT (Dillard) or OG (Lindstrom) would have improved the situation dramatically. Prince, FWIW, is a good developmental OT, meaning he has lots of bad tape but the talent to maybe correct his issues. I preferred Yosuah Nijman as mediocre player/elite talent pick at OT, but Prince is nice consolation. Kenny Willekes, who I love, abused Prince in the Michigan State game. That matchup kept it close, so it'd be super impressive to see Prince earn any real playing time as a rookie.

Getting guys like Wilkins is good, and I think he's a great fit. I'm just not sure how much it matters big picture. There probably isn't going to be another Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver in the next 5 years, and that's why I'd understand going for either of them than an OL. Christian Wilkins is good, but is he rare as a player? Is he so good that the team should divert its attention from securing the best situation for its incoming QB? That's where it becomes a no for me. Dillard has rare physical tools, a huge number of pass-pro reps with highest success rate in the class, and he plays a position that directly benefits your QB.

I'm glad to have Wilkins on the team, and I'm excited to see him play. I dislike the context of the pick - not the player.
Click to expand...
 
ckparrothead said:
I agree with you 100%.

That said, I hear they're going to be aggressive in post May 8th "street free agent" period, as well as post June 1st when/if guys get cut.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the stop gap approach that has failed us for years? Actually, "stop gap" isn't really an accurate description, because it indicates some level of temporary success.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
Agree with you. I posted this yesterday on the VIP forum.
Click to expand...

Pretty much nailed it. Right after the draft I was really happy we took Wilkins. I was mainly happy because it was not lock or Haskins being the pick. After that wore off, I realized a pick on the oline was probably the right direction. Then we made the Rosen trade and the Wilkins pick really didn't make any sense in that context. I know they said Grier had Wilkins as his highest graded player on the entire board. I respect that he stuck to his guns but it also scares that he had Wilkins graded out that high haha

The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. Something seems off even though I feel like they played the trade pretty well.
 
Gonzo said:
Isn't that the stop gap approach that has failed us for years? Actually, "stop gap" isn't really an accurate description, because it indicates some level of temporary success.
Click to expand...

Well.

Yeah.

But the approach that has failed the Dolphins for years would probably be more aptly described as the Jay Fielder, Damon Huard, Ray Lucas, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, Daunte Culpepper, Joey Harrington, Trent Green, John Beck, Cleo Lemon, Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Ryan Tannehill, Jay Cutler, David Fales, Brock Osweiler approach.

This is one thing I've kept trying to impress upon people. It's all well and good to start pretending that the philosophies in Miami have been the same for 20 years (they haven't) and that they've been misguided (maybe some of them). It's all well and good to pretend the issue is we never 'tanked' to get a top quarterback (we actually did).

But the bottom line is Miami had several whacks at several top notch quarterbacks that OTHER TEAMS seemed to know could be special, and Miami botched it.

So making good decisions is more important than philosophical machinations at this point.
 
Last edited:
I’m not gonna complain about landing a potentially really good player in Christian Wilkins (in what was also an area of need) just because it doesn’t seem to pair or complement the Rosen trade.

This team needs a lot of talent. I think they landed one really good player and perhaps they got two?

I wasn’t happy with surrendering a 2nd round pick for Rosen considering the Cardinals seemingly lost most suitors for him, along with leverage, but if he works out — great.

All in all, this wasn’t gonna be fixed in one draft. And selecting a lineman in the 1st round over Wilkins wasn’t going improve the online situation to a point to where it’s not still problematic so I’m good with them opting to take him.
 
ckparrothead said:
Well.

Yeah.

But the approach that has failed the Dolphins for years would probably be more aptly described as the Jay Fielder, Damon Huard, Ray Lucas, AJ Feeley, Gus Frerotte, Sage Rosenfels, Daunte Culpepper, Joey Harrington, Trent Green, John Beck, Cleo Lemon, Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Ryan Tannehill, Jay Cutler, David Fales, Brock Osweiler approach.

This is one thing I've kept trying to impress upon people. It's all well and good to start pretending that the philosophies in Miami have been the same for 20 years (they haven't) and that they've been misguided (maybe some of them). It's all well and good to pretend the issue is we never 'tanked' to get a top quarterback (we actually did).

But the bottom line is Miami had several whacks at several top notch quarterbacks that OTHER TEAMS seemed to know could be special, and Miami botched it.

So making good decisions is more important than philosophical machinations at this point.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was only referring to the approach to the line. The QB is different and much bigger issue.
 
Drafts I loved:

Arizona - Best player/QB in the class, really good CB, outstanding group of receivers. Passing wins and loses in the NFL.

Drafts I likes pretty well:

Tampa Bay - mixed feelings about the White pick, as I really like the player, but there were other players I really liked that play more valuable positions still on the board. Love the picks of Dean, Edwards, and Nelson, and Scott Miller is a player I just forgot to include on my board. He has a legitimate chance to outplay his draft slot.

Buffalo - Ed Oliver and Cody Ford make this class. Knox has the physical talent to develop, but he's basically an unknown. The rest was really bad.

Miami - the 2nd Round was a thing of beauty. Moving down from 48 to add a 2019 2nd and then trading 62 for Rosen is one of the best sequences in years. It would have been nice if Miami behaved as though they were excited to acquire Rosen by focusing the draft on helping him. If it's true that they could have moved down in the 1st, that's a black mark. Here's hoping Miami can replicate NE's success with low-cost OL.

Washington - got Haskins at a good spot/in the range I like him. Good value on Sweat despite the trade up, and Holcomb, Harmon, and Brailford are very nice late-round picks. They all have a shot. Not as high on McLaurin, but he should contribute. Love is a wildcard. Pretty good draft for a shitty organization.

Drafts I didn't hate:

San Francisco - Bosa is good, and they needed DE more than DT. Samuel should do well in Shannahan's offense. The rest is pretty uninspiring.

NYJ - Quinnen Williams is the best non-QB in the class, but Polite at 68 is ugly. With Darnold entering his second year, and the Jets' offense needing so much help, their focus on D doesn't make a lot of sense. I do like Edoga and Cashman where they got them.

Jacksonville - Allen and Taylor were solid picks. The rest of their class lacks focus/meaning.

Detroit - 8 is really high for a TE. Hockenson will have to develop much quicker than most top TE's to make this pick decent. Even if he does, the financial aspect of the pick doesn't give Detroit much of an edge. Tavai is a good fit, but I had questions about his speed, and he didn't test. Like the Oruwariye pick the best, followed by the Ty Johnson pick.

Pittsburgh - like where they got Justin Layne and Ulysees Gilbert III. Trading up for Bush is rough and smells of desperation. Good player, but he'll have to be an All Pro to justify the draft capital - bad process. Drafting Diontae Johnson at 66, with some of the other receivers still available, was also weird. Not a great job by Pittsburgh.

Cincinnati - Jonah Williams should be a Day 1 starter, and I like Pratt and T. Williams, but the Bengals - like many of these teams - had what seemed like an aimless approach. Even if some of these guys hit, with the exception of Williams, the payoff will be minimal. Also, I liked Sample more than most, but I agree with the consensus that he was a massive reach.

Green Bay - my main issue with GB's draft is the focus on D, when they need so much help on O. Savage and Jenkins are very good players and should contribute early. Savage has star potential. Gary is a really nice fit, and Keke is a good developmental DL. Wasn't as high on Sternberger, but he's fine where they drafted him. The GB D has a lot of young talent, and maybe it will be good enough to *squints* carry Aaron Rodgers and the Offense . . .

Atlanta - love the Lindstrom pick, and I like Cominsky as a developmental DE, but trading up for McGary was bad, and the rest of the class was uninspiring (to put it kindly). Still, attacking the OL when you have a QB and weapons like Atlanta is a solid plan.

Carolina - higher on Burns than most here, but I question the fit and question them prioritizing Pass Rusher over OT, especially when Dillard is a better prospect. Think Little could be solid or flame out - not a great consolation prize for missing on Dillard. Appropriate value for Grier. Nothing exciting or particularly clever about this class.

Minnesota - Bradbury is a good player/elite athlete at a position of significant need. Like Watts, Epps, Boyd, and Mitchell where they got 'em. Smith and Mattison drag the class down a bit for me.

Drafts I hated:

Oakland - Ferrell at 4, Jacobs in the 1st, the Raiders squandered their wealth of early picks - just really ugly. Do like the Moreau and Crosby picks, though.

NYG - at least Jones is a QB/there's some chance in hell he lives up to the value of the pick, but the Giants continue to embarrass themselves. Baker is a solid CB prospect, but the trade up to get him is questionable. Julian Love was the best pick by a country mile and a steal in the 4th.

Will try to give quick takes on the rest asap.
 
I've been strategically and happily avoiding the offseason so I was unaware of the consensus around here and frankly a lot of it surprise me. I would have been disgusted with an offensive lineman in the first round. I would have shut off the television and probably not returned until the following day. Heck, there was world championship mixed doubles curling I could have caught up with.

If you are drafting a golf bag you don't start out with a 4 iron. That's the equivalent of taking an offensive lineman first. I think we've got far too much irrelevant fooler material like the Colts last year. Think 70 years not 1. None of these guys were the equivalent of Nelson to begin with. I thought it was a sorry lot, given where they were projected prior to Thursday. The NFL had some clarity by allowing them to slide somewhat. The only one I liked enough to consider somewhere in the first round was Bradbury, but that was tempered by McCoy likely being available one round later. That's the proper focus for offensive linemen, guys like McCoy in the second or Armstead in the late third or Thuney in the mid third or Shaq Mason in the fourth. Obviously you don't pass a sliding rare talent like Tunsil but that's never going to happen again so ignore it.

Ryan Tannehill made the offensive line look worse than it is. When a 35 year old running back is averaging 4.6 yards per carry, that might be a slight hint, especially when it was nearly a full yard above his numbers from any of 3 years prior with the Colts. We spent 7 years brainwashed into believing that our subpar athletes were a decisive cut below the subpar athletes of 31 other teams.

I wanted Daniel Jones off the board. That was priority number 1-345. I didn't think the Dolphins were stupid enough but it wasn't worth 10 minutes of terror to find out. Laughing at Gettleman was distant second to joyous relief.

Then it a long tease with Ed Oliver, who would have equated to another Tunsil situation but minus the headgear. Never going to happen but I don't regret the root. The league is more interesting when the Bills have a vicious attacking defense, especially for those late season home games.

Once it reached the Miami slot I thought it was obvious the pick would be Wilkins or Lawrence, with nod likelihood to Wilkins as a safer guy with unquestioned character. It really reminded me of last year with Minkah above Derwin James. The bigger guy probably has more upside but I understand the mentality of taking the building block piece who allows peaceful sleep for everyone in the organization.

Grier can make all the safe first round choices he wants as long as he sticks to that formula...choosing among a handful of premier recruits from major schools who quickly produced big in college, and continued to do so. Lawrence was considered the 2nd to 5th player in the country that year and won't turn 22 until late November. I wouldn't have minded him at all. The Dolphins have been kidding themselves regarding the upside of Godchaux and Taylor.

Brian Burns has nice analytics and I can understand the frame comparisons to Jason Taylor, but something always bothered me about Burns. He doesn't seem angry enough out there. He'll get around the corner but without the tenacity of someone like Taylor, or Jared Allen to use an extreme example.

I don't know how Charles Harris can be used as example of a safe pick. He was a 2-star nothing recruit who went to a school that is technically within the SEC but I don't think anyone really believes that. In short, he is everything that Fitzpatrick and Wilkins were not. If Stephen Ross is determined to keep Grier he should at least hire someone whose sole responsibility is to remind Grier of Charles Harris every day, like walking alongside Grier with an ipad of Harris videos, and non stop questions. Lunch for Grier every day is that ipad in his face. Tough love.
 
Last edited:
j-off-her-doll said:
Miami - the 2nd Round was a thing of beauty. Moving down from 48 to add a 2019 2nd and then trading 62 for Rosen is one of the best sequences in years.
Click to expand...

Exactly correct. I'm surprised there isn't more spotlight on that. It was worth more than anything else that has happened this year, other than jettisoning Tannehill.

But combined with the Tannehill move that 2nd round maneuvering was evidence of sharp thinking upstairs...at long last.

Consequently I really didn't care what happened later, even if I disagreed with some of it. There was enough meaningful evidence already. Details don't matter at that point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom