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Joey or Daunte

dplunk said:
Yeah lets not cut the guy any slack at all. Lets just ignore the fact that it was his first action in almost a year while playing on a different team while not fully recovered from major knee surgery which also hurt Carson Palmer until he got some time to get used to it. Yeah all of that means nothing. And we should just ignore Joey's equally poor slow start while he was fully healthy and playing behind an oline that had made moves and was playing a lot better than they were while Daunte was in there. Oh, well we can probably just ignore that and blame every single sack on Daunte though since that is what he does. He holds onto the ball so that WRs can actually run downfield and let longer routes develop. That way he can actually throw downfield and gain a lot of yardage instead of dumping every throw off and not even looking to go more than 10 yards downfield. You know what, its not even a question. Joey=starter next year. No debate whatsoever. :rolleyes2

Yea, except even Carson Palmer's worst game was better than Daunte's worst game this season. Why? Because Carson Palmer is a pocket QB who can actually pass from the pocket rather than having to scramble outside like Daunte to afford time to make his reads. And here's the thing, they got wins against some decent competition. Daunte lost to shoddy teams where the D held them to a respectable level and Daunte still couldn't capitalize. That OL may have been playing better but they still gave up a lot of pressure against the Jags and Joey still didn't do as poorly as say Eli Manning. And even now I don't think Daunte can play well enough with that improved line. Daunte holds onto the ball so that WR's can run downfield but forgets to notice that the D is gaining on him and is too slow to find an open man to dump it off to and takes a big loss. And in case you read my other entries and didn't understand them, you should notice I'm for a fair competition between the two. Neither should be given the job outright.
 
Regan21286 said:
Yea, except even Carson Palmer's worst game was better than Daunte's best game this season. Why? Because Carson Palmer is a pocket QB who can actually pass from the pocket rather than having to scramble outside like Daunte to afford time to make his reads. And here's the thing, they got wins against some decent competition. Daunte lost to shoddy teams where the D held them to a respectable level and Daunte still couldn't capitalize. That OL may have been playing better but they still gave up a lot of pressure against the Jags and Joey still didn't do as poorly as say Eli Manning. And even now I don't think Daunte can play well enough with that improved line. Daunte holds onto the ball so that WR's can run downfield but forgets to notice that the D is gaining on him and is too slow to find an open man to dump it off to and takes a big loss. And in case you read my other entries and didn't understand them, you should notice I'm for a fair competition between the two. Neither should be given the job outright.

Palmer's worst game 12/26 (46.2%) 194 yds 1 TD 2 Ints rating of 52.4
Culpepper's best game 23/32 (71.9%) 250 yds 1TD 1 Int rating of 91.6
 
tmny99 said:
Palmer's worst game 12/26 (46.2%) 194 yds 1 TD 2 Ints rating of 52.4
Culpepper's best game 23/32 (71.9%) 250 yds 1TD 1 Int rating of 91.6

Whoops, meant to say Palmer's worst game was better than Culpepper's worst
 
Regan21286 said:
Yea, except even Carson Palmer's worst game was better than Daunte's worst game this season. Why? Because Carson Palmer is a pocket QB who can actually pass from the pocket rather than having to scramble outside like Daunte to afford time to make his reads. And here's the thing, they got wins against some decent competition. Daunte lost to shoddy teams where the D held them to a respectable level and Daunte still couldn't capitalize. That OL may have been playing better but they still gave up a lot of pressure against the Jags and Joey still didn't do as poorly as say Eli Manning. And even now I don't think Daunte can play well enough with that improved line. Daunte holds onto the ball so that WR's can run downfield but forgets to notice that the D is gaining on him and is too slow to find an open man to dump it off to and takes a big loss. And in case you read my other entries and didn't understand them, you should notice I'm for a fair competition between the two. Neither should be given the job outright.

That is exactly what I have said as well. And I brought up Palmer because he was struggling and not playing like himself just like Daunte. And a big reason for their struggles was mechanics. They were not able to plant and throw correctly because of their knees. I am not saying Daunte is as good as Palmer. I think Palmer is the best QB in the league right now.

The idea that Daunte holds onto the ball for too long is a misconception. That is the conclusion you guys have come to simply because he was taking sacks. You don't even bother to think about whether any of the sacks he was taking was because of the poor blocking of the offensive line. You also act like sacks are such a terrible thing. They aren't good, but they aren't turnovers. Daunte has shown throughout his career that he does a lot of good to make up for any bad that he does on the field.

Where do you get this stuff that Daunte is not a pocket Qb like Palmer is? Daunte is not like Vick who drops back looking to run half the time. Did you ever see him in Minnesota when he was healthy? He is a drop back pocket passer first and foremost. He only runs when the situation calls for it. How would he be able to put up the very good passing numbers he has in his career without being a good pocket passer?

You still talk as though Daunte is to blame for absolutely everything that was wrong with the offense and the whole team. You still fail to mention how terrible the offensive line was. Every single media outlet or football analyst recognized that the line was terrible. The secondary was also horrible up until recently. Hell lets just forget plays like the 87 yard TD from the Steelers while we were winning in the 4th quarter. There were numerous plays and situations that Daunte had no control over which led to us lossing those games. And that is not even to mention the fact that he was never fully recovered from his injury.
 
Yeah, the offensive line was so terrible. I mean, it just magically fixed after the Houston game. :rolleyes:

How many sacks did the New England defense record with Harrington behind center? And how many sacks did Daunte took against that terrible Houston defense?

Daunte holds onto the ball rather than throw the ball away; which keeps his completion percentage and his quarterback rating still high. I like our chances at 3rd and 10 with Joey Harrington rather than 3rd and 20+ which we had several times with Daunte Culpepper.

If Culpepper is back, he's going to have to adjust to this offensive line; one that doesn't have a pro bowl guard and pro bowl center like he had in 2004.

He's going to have to move his legs faster, he's going to have to learn to play within the pocket, and he's going to have to make quicker decisions; if he can't do this, he won't survive another 3 weeks on this team without hurting himself.

Still rooting for the guy because Saban grabbed him and is paying him ALOT of money next season, 6-7 million dollars. If Daunte doesn't work out, that can put Saban's job on the line. :shakeno:
 
Vertical Limit said:
Yeah, the offensive line was so terrible. I mean, it just magically fixed after the Houston game. :rolleyes:

How many sacks did the New England defense record with Harrington behind center? And how many sacks did Daunte took against that terrible Houston defense?

Daunte holds onto the ball rather than throw the ball away; which keeps his completion percentage and his quarterback rating still high. I like our chances at 3rd and 10 with Joey Harrington rather than 3rd and 20+ which we had several times with Daunte Culpepper.

If Culpepper is back, he's going to have to adjust to this offensive line; one that doesn't have a pro bowl guard and pro bowl center like he had in 2004.

He's going to have to move his legs faster, he's going to have to learn to play within the pocket, and he's going to have to make quicker decisions; if he can't do this, he won't survive another 3 weeks on this team.

You do realize that we moved Shelton, who was playing absolutely terrible at LT, to guard. And we took McIntosh, who was at guard, and moved him into the LT spot. That drastically improved the line play. Here is an analysis of the offensive line after the first Patriots game.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/10/11/ramblings/every-play-counts/4370/

"After watching the line on every play of Sunday’s 20-10 loss to the Patriots, it appears that the pass protection problems of the first four games were at least as much about Culpepper’s habit of holding onto the ball too long as about the protection he got. But if the pass protection is a bit better than advertised, the run blocking is worse. The Dolphins line will prevent running back Ronnie Brown from showing the talents that made him a top-5 pick last year."

And why is it such a big deal that Daunte has had a few probowlers blocking for him. A lot of good QBs have had probowl linemen blocking for them. I am sure Marino had a few in his day. Palmer and Manning have a few on their line. Is it not too much to ask to have one good, probowl caliber player on the line to block for you?

This still comes down to his injury. If you can't see that it was dramatically affecting his performance than I will stop participating in this thread. You cannot discuss him performance this year without taking into account that his knee was not right and it was having a big impact on how he played.
 
Daunte SUCKS! ^ points only against buffalo at home? the guy is garbage and Hopefully will be cut.
 
Wow... if DC comes back next season and lites up the field I wonder what all of the naysayers will be doing.

Ther's only so much room on the bandwagon at any given time....:o
 
phinphan11 said:
Wow... if DC comes back next season and lites up the field I wonder what all of the naysayers will be doing.

Ther's only so much room on the bandwagon at any given time....:o

LMAO, IF he comes back get use to seeing 5 sacks+2 fumbles a game. The guy is horrible. Should be traded for a 4th round pick asap!
 
Rj2ko said:
LMAO, IF he comes back get use to seeing 5 sacks+2 fumbles a game. The guy is horrible. Should be traded for a 4th round pick asap!

Could happen, but are you gonna be around next season to see what happens?

Make sure that if he does turn it around that you will be here to admit you were wrong. And I'll be sure to do the same if he doesn't.
 
dplunk said:
That is exactly what I have said as well. And I brought up Palmer because he was struggling and not playing like himself just like Daunte. And a big reason for their struggles was mechanics. They were not able to plant and throw correctly because of their knees. I am not saying Daunte is as good as Palmer. I think Palmer is the best QB in the league right now.

The idea that Daunte holds onto the ball for too long is a misconception. That is the conclusion you guys have come to simply because he was taking sacks. You don't even bother to think about whether any of the sacks he was taking was because of the poor blocking of the offensive line. You also act like sacks are such a terrible thing. They aren't good, but they aren't turnovers. Daunte has shown throughout his career that he does a lot of good to make up for any bad that he does on the field.

Where do you get this stuff that Daunte is not a pocket Qb like Palmer is? Daunte is not like Vick who drops back looking to run half the time. Did you ever see him in Minnesota when he was healthy? He is a drop back pocket passer first and foremost. He only runs when the situation calls for it. How would he be able to put up the very good passing numbers he has in his career without being a good pocket passer?

You still talk as though Daunte is to blame for absolutely everything that was wrong with the offense and the whole team. You still fail to mention how terrible the offensive line was. Every single media outlet or football analyst recognized that the line was terrible. The secondary was also horrible up until recently. Hell lets just forget plays like the 87 yard TD from the Steelers while we were winning in the 4th quarter. There were numerous plays and situations that Daunte had no control over which led to us lossing those games. And that is not even to mention the fact that he was never fully recovered from his injury.

Yes, but you said that I want Joey as the starter unconditionally when I've been posting that I want a fair competition. If Daunte was a good pocket passer, he wouldn't have to rely on his legs so much. He gets good passing numbers because he doesn't throw the ball away and takes the sack as well as his ability to scamper out of the pocket for more time. The OL takes 60% of the blame in my book but Daunte takes 30% at least. The OL for being suppar and Daunte for holding the ball too long and not getting it out. You forget the bonehead passes against the Steelers and the Bills and the absolute lack of TD's or offensive production. If he can turn it around and not repeat his performance this year or his 2005 or 2002 year, I'm all for it. But right now, he's not looking so good and he's got an uphill battle to prove that 06/05/and 02 are flukes.
 
Regan21286 said:
Yes, but you said that I want Joey as the starter unconditionally when I've been posting that I want a fair competition. If Daunte was a good pocket passer, he wouldn't have to rely on his legs so much. He gets good passing numbers because he doesn't throw the ball away and takes the sack as well as his ability to scamper out of the pocket for more time. The OL takes 60% of the blame in my book but Daunte takes 30% at least. The OL for being suppar and Daunte for holding the ball too long and not getting it out. You forget the bonehead passes against the Steelers and the Bills and the absolute lack of TD's or offensive production. If he can turn it around and not repeat his performance this year or his 2005 or 2002 year, I'm all for it. But right now, he's not looking so good and he's got an uphill battle to prove that 06/05/and 02 are flukes.

Well I must have not read your posts before I joined the thread because since we have been talking, I don't remember you saying those things. Bottom line to me is I think if he is any more health than he was during the first 4 games, he will be just as good as Joey if not better even with taking a few sacks. I would gladly give up a sack here and there in order to get the ball downfield and make big plays. It may be an uphill battle, but he has all offseason to get healthy and he should have all of training camp and the preseason to compete with Joey.
 
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