Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Aqua4Ever04, Jan 12, 2019.
Yeah, this is the guy you want leading the franchise
I hope we pass on Murray, I love some of his abilities but his size is still a huge concern, not to mention the jokes would get old especially if he gets knocked out like Pat White did. Murray is too freakin tiny and his body type reminds me of Pat white.
Murray wont commit to football either which annoying and concerning. Would I take a flyer on him in the 2nd? Absolutely, but no way with the 13th pick at this point.
I don't see the upside with Murray.... Because he is so damn small.
Jesus, that was cringeworthy. How can you not be prepared for the most obvious questions you are going to be asked at this time of your career?
I was actually kinda, sorta, maybe excited about the longshot that this guy could be Baker Mayfield-with-Michael Vick-speed and we somehow ended up with him on draft day through some shrewd maneuvering and savvy trades.
Now I'm scared to death at the thought of seeing him lining up for us on opening day.
Here's a transcript of a radio interview Greg Cosell recently did about Kyler Murray.
Host: "Greg, I know you have watched at least EIGHT GAMES of Kyler Murray so far..."
Greg Cosell: "I have."
Host: "Initial takeaways and observations as I know you've looked at Kyler Murray as a quarterback?"
Greg Cosell: "You know, I really liked Kyler Murray (chuckling). And, I know that- the bottom line is this: there'll be people who say he lacks the desired height/weight profile for the position, and if you feel that way, I get it. He's probably going to be under 5-10, and he's not bulky like, let's say, a Russell Wilson is.
But, to me, I thought he was a better thrower than Russell Wilson, watching him, I thought he was more dynamically athletic, ...
I think you're going to run into a situation with him, Johnathan, where he's an exception because of his height, and some coaches will see a 'too short' quarterback, and some coaches will see a prototype for the changing nature of the NFL.
I really liked him on film, because at the end of the day, he's an excellent thrower. And I think that is the thing that leads me to believe that he can be a quality NFL starter.
Host: "How much have you changed your mindset on the profile- the prototypical quarterback look over the years when you've been doing this process, now?"
Greg Cosell: "Quite a bit and I think that's more a function of the NFL game than it is of Kyler Murray, let's say. Because I think you see in the NFL game now, you see much quicker throws. If you look at the statistics that indicate throws based on yardage from the line of scrimmage, each year it seems to get less, and less, and less. There's more quick game, the ball gets out. There's more backfield actions, you present run game elements from the quarterback. Even if you don't use them, they're presented by the nature of the way you play offense.
And I think Murray- look, people are gonna say, he'll get broken in half. You know when he ran in college he got down, he didn't take shots. I know it's a different animal in the NFL, but...
...I just really like the way he threw the football, and that to me is what leads me to say that I really like him as a prospect.
Host: "I remember vividly a year ago Greg, you were talking about Baker Mayfield, and you said you were amazed at how many on-schedule, in-system throws he was making, because I think you turned on the tape almost expecting some freelancing-"
Greg Cosell: (agreeing) "Well that was the perception I had, yeah, yeah, yeah."
Host: "Do you see some of that with Kyler Murray, also? The percentage- comparing him to the previous Oklahoma quarterback, were you seeing a lot of throws that were within the structure of that offense, that were more scheduled than you thought?"
Greg Cosell: "Yes. For sure.
Although, one of the negatives I did have, and in some ways this is just like Russell Wilson as well, Murray will always leave some throws on the field, due to his height, and, at times, premature movement where he just feels that he has to get out of there. And that might be a function of, he can't see it, it doesn't show right away- Now, there's a balance there, Chad, because guys can then run for like 12 yards and a 1st down, and then, what do you say?
I remember asking a Seattle coach about that with Russell Wilson, ya know, what happens when he clearly misses a throw, by not throwing it, but then runs for 12 yards?
They say, 'Nice play, Russell'.
You know, so, I mean, there's a balance there."
Host: "There certainly is. And I mean, Greg you're right, there will be a team, two, three, that love the guy (Cosell: "Right. That's all it takes."), and they'll take him in the first round."
Greg Cosell: "And then the others, they'll just say hey he's 5-9 and three-quarters, whatever he is, and say, 'Can't do it he's too short'."
Host: "The height does get to me a little bit though (Cosell: "No question") to be honest. 5-9. I'm thinkin if he measures 5-9, what that would do to me as a General Manager if I were making that pick. Is Russell Wilson 6 foot?"
Greg Cosell: "No, Russell Wilson is under 5-11. Yeah."
Host: "Is he really?? Wow. Cuz you know that is the comp, height-wise. How tall was Doug Flutie?"
Greg Cosell: "5-9'ish. And who's to say if Doug Flutie played today with the, sort of the way people think about offense differently from the 80's, when the prototype was the 6-4, 225 lbs pocket quarterback, P.K. you remember all that, yeah, yeah. It's a long time ago.
Paul Kuharskey: "He probably falls asleep some night thinking about that, 'if I played today...' "
Greg Cosell: "Yeah!"
Think Cosell touches on some great points. Even as Wilson was dominating the NFL, leaving defenders clutching at air, and passing with transcendent efficiency, many people were picking apart and complaining about his game. Some people still do. But, Murray is very clearly quicker and Faster than Wilson. In fact, Murray has the quickest feet of any QB that I've ever watched.
I also agree that he's a more talented passer than Wilson. Wilson has a big arm, but Murray has a more compact delivery, and the ball jumps out of his hand. I'd say that Murray is a little more consistent with his ball placement to all areas of the field, as well, and Wilson has some of the best deep-ball placement in the league.
Things I look for in a QB:
Accuracy/touch/varies trajectory - check
Intelligence and instincts - check
Feet - check
Enough arm strength - check
These are all HUGE pluses for Murray. There isn't a catch where I'm like, "Well, it's close, but you pass." It's more like, "God, yes!" With regard to his intelligence, the most common criticism (outside of height/weight) is that he doesn't go through his progressions enough or quickly enough. As far as college QB's go, I think he does this very well. He's not Baker Mayfield, but outside of Mayfield, I haven't seen a top prospect in recent years who is obviously better in this area. More to the point, though, say I'm wrong and they're right that it's an area of improvement. Do people think he's not smart enough or instinctive enough to do at a high enough level to excel in the NFL? Because, that's what it comes down to. Don't miss the forest for the trees. Big picture, are intelligent and instincts strengths or weaknesses for Murray? I'd question the judgement of any who favors the latter.
Both Wilson and Watson have been questioned on the same thing, and what have they done? Only overcome terrible OL's (not to mention hack OC's), something very few QB's can do, to carry their teams while playing very efficiently. QB's with playmaking ability tend to hold the ball longer, because they know that they have the ability to elude defenders and make big plays when they do. Sometimes it bites them, but the plays they make > the sacks they take. Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger fall into this category, as well, but I'm not qwhite sure why people don't mention it as such a negative for them (particularly Ben, who is the worst at it in the group and takes the most punishment).
And, that hits on one of Cosell's most important points, addressing the biggest criticism of Murray, he's as good as it gets at avoiding big hits. Anyone can be injured, but I don't see it as a legitimate criticism of his game. If Murray comes in at 195, he'll have a higher bmi than Goff, who hasn't missed any time with injury, despite being a sitting duck due to his lack of athleticism. Murray is much better at avoiding contact than Goff, who either gets it out quick, gets great blocking, or takes a beating.
Arm Accuracy –Illustrates more general accuracy vs. pinpoint precision. Capable of making ample lay-up throws and has plenty of flashes to drive ball into tight window. That said, leaves too many back-shoulder throws inside or forces steep adjustments from receivers at the catch point.
Decision Making –Would like to see him more willing to keep his eyes up on arrival of pressure, often drops eyes and will miss uncovered targets by deciding to run. Has had lapses in post-snap processing, although lack of experience as a starter suggests these errors can be ironed out.
Progressions –Biggest area of inconsistency. Fully capable, moves eyes across the set and can work right to left or high to low. Too often predetermines his target, however. Guilty of staring down the barrel. Misses a lot of intermediate routes into the MOF, struggles to see over OL.
Anticipation –Throws with most confidence to two areas: vertically between the numbers and on out-breaking patterns to the sideline. Good timing in these areas, otherwise prefers to see the throw uncovered. Spot throws into zone are inconsistent in placement/convenience to catch.
Poise –Has made some big time plays in key game situations (WVU, Texas 2018). Composure under pressure is effective to force a missed rusher. If he’s flushed up the pocket, he’s running. Willing to wait out a target when rolling away from pressure. Comfortable in the chaos.
Arm Strength –Compact delivery really generates a lot of torque, baseball background is evident and effective to create velocity. Easy thrower, capable of pushing the ball vertically, even when his base remains unset. Ball explodes off his hand and arrives with great pace and trajectory.
Pocket Awareness –Only time these reps are negative are when he gets greedy. Slides within the pocket naturally and is comfortable throwing off balance. Shows awareness of his throwing lanes and does well to alter his arm slot to work around pressure as best he can.
Mechanics –Sudden delivery allows him to shoot the ball out quickly under duress. Mobility can betray him at times, as variance in accuracy expands as he throws on the move outside the pocket. Will work in vast degrees of release point as needed but still generates velocity.
Footwork –Crisp, quick feet. Gets out of the snap smooth and is most effective sliding laterally within the pocket. Needs to have more intent to snap feet back to a balanced base, many of his accuracy lapses seem to come from casual lower half when he’s forced off his spot.
Mobility –Elite quality. Has explosive first step to break contain. Tears apart man coverage down the field with his speed and open field ability. OU ran him in speed option and zone read concepts as well with much success, will break contain on designed QB runs.
BEST TRAIT – Playmaking Ability
WORST TRAIT – Progressions (MOF specifically)
BEST FILM – Iowa State (2018)
WORST FILM – UCLA (2018)
RED FLAGS – Size/Durability Concerns
Kyler Murray is a fascinating NFL Draft prospect. His size presents limitations to consistently see intermediate breaks in the MOF and will pose an injury concern in the NFL. Murray has speed, escapability, a powerful throwing arm and enough general accuracy to allow gifted catch point receivers to adjust and ensure the catch. Murray is not a one size fits all prospect but in an offensive utilizing RPO/spread concepts, he can be an explosive weapon and effective starting QB.
Accuracy – Generally accurate, but ball placement and location still need work. Can force his receivers into adjustments on outside the number throws at times, rather than leading them to YAC. Pretty clean short-intermediate as a passer. Can put a little too much air on his deep ball at times, forcing receiver to slow up for the ball.
Decision-Making – Does he not see the field well or does he not care, instead opting to rely on his arm and dumb luck? Either way, Murray has to become a better decision maker in the NFL. Got away with a lot of decisions in the Big 12 that he wouldn’t have against better competition. Alabama flubbed a couple of interception opportunities. Not above frustration throws into coverage. While he has reckless moments, not a snap-to-snap issue and generally remains calm in a clean pocket to make the proper decision.
Mental Processing – Does not throw with anticipation very often, which can lead to a lot of balls in expiring windows. Flashes of progression work are encouraging for a first year starter, but can linger on his first read and doesn’t really have the awareness to look off safeties yet. Holds the ball for a long time and he can get away with it at Oklahoma because of his OL and zero opposing pass rush…things will need to speed up in the NFL.
Velocity/Arm Strength – Can drive the ball into tight windows with excellent velocity. Absolute whip to make high degree of difficulty throws. Can throw the ball for distance as well as any quarterback in the class. Excellent ability to vary touch and velocity as needed, just has to learn when to do each. Floats the ball at times when he should zip it. Great control over how much he’s putting on the ball as a vertical passer.
Pocket Presence – Typically does not see ghosts in the pocket, but at the first sign of pressure he’s often bailing. Has passed up open receivers to get out of the pocket and pick up what he can with his legs, sometimes wisely so. Opts for Plan B a little too quickly, will be harder to make that work consistently in the NFL. When he steps up, it’s almost always to run and not throw. So few instances of seeing him under pressures that it is hard to feel certain of any assessment of him in this area.
Mechanics – Mechanics are interesting. Doesn’t always have the proper footwork or follow through with his trail leg, yet still has the arm to hit near-hash and forward-facing targets. When he was forced to open to the sideline on the far hash, often threw so hard that he fell off his platform and lost accuracy/velocity. More consistent feet would aid him a lot. Release has moments of perfection, and others from more awkward-looking arm angles, but he makes that part work well.
Improvisation – Capable of achieving a good result despite a bad process due to his legs and ability to extend plays off platform. Can throw accurately from off platform and has the arm to make it work from a compromised base. Scrambling ability and burst as a runner are incredibly rare at the position. Elite athlete. Too reliant on this ability at times, when he could play more within structure.
Leadership/Work Ethic – Described as a leader by example by teammates. Not as vocal as Baker Mayfield was and not necessarily an alpha personality, which NFL teams will look into, but I don’t care about. Work ethic and competitive drive are obvious. Lingering questions about baseball will surround him for the foreseeable future.
Poise – Was absolutely rattled and skittish to begin the game against Alabama, settled in a little bit late in the game. That was by FAR the best defensive test he faced all year, on big stages in the Big 12 he seemed unfazed. Never faced copious amounts of pressure until Alabama.
Athleticism/Size – Unprecedented small stature in the modern era of football for a quarterback. Not only is he extremely short for the position, it would be an upset if he topped 200 pounds. Only three fumbles all of last season, which should stave off the hand size sticklers. Absolutely elite athlete who might be the fastest quarterback in the NFL, and certainly the most explosive in his first three steps.
BEST TRAIT – Athleticism/Arm Strength
WORST TRAIT – Decision-Making
RED FLAGS – None
What a wild ride it has been, but here we are. Kyler Murray is my QB1 in the abysmal 2019 quarterback class. No, Murray won’t have a first round grade from me, but he is a more exciting prospect than Dwayne Haskins with an admittedly lower floor. Murray’s arm talent and athleticism allow him to achieve good results even with a flawed and sometimes unsustainable process, revealing flashes of what could be if he becomes more adept from the neck up.
Right now Murray is a raw talent with elite athleticism and a nice arm, but playing quarterback takes a lot more than that. His burst and movement skills are jaw-dropping and will save him for awhile, but eventually he will need to develop the nuances of his game and perfect his mechanics, which will require a quarterback that is truly bought in to his growth and developmental as a football player.
If Murray is still flirting with a commitment to the game of baseball, his transition to the NFL may not work. It will be essential for teams to discover how invested he is in becoming a great quarterback, as well as vetting how his size and run-heavy playing style will limit his availability in the NFL. Murray’s evaluation and draft slot will be one of the most fascinating results of the 2019 draft. God help the teams in desperate need of a quarterback this year.
PROS: True playmaker. Can make almost any short/intermediate throw in and out of the pocket. Top-end short accuracy. Great athlete and he has an understanding of when to use it. Always a threat to make a big play with his legs. Consistent footwork leads to solid accuracy across the board. Above average touch, usually seen on his intermediate passes. Safe with the ball in his hands. Can balance making the big play on the run and keeping the ball off the ground.
Cons: Exceedingly small for his position, height and frame issues. Low arm angle and long throwing motion limits the throws he can make and results in batted balls at the line of scrimmage. Needs time in pocket to increase velocity. Fails to progress through all of his reads on a consistent basis. Can be too aggressive to leave the pocket at times. Doesn’t possess consistent deep accuracy, especially out of structure. Tendency to hesitate when pressured. Almost always reverts to safest read, even if it leaves yards on the field. Signed to play professional baseball.
Bad evaluations and bad evaluation processes from TDN imo. You should post the links, though. Worth noting that the guy who said he won't have a 1st on Murray said that Roseb was easily his QB1 last year, which speaks to his inability to look for the right things, see the right things, or some combination.
Murray is not a 1st Round QB, but Goff is a stud . . . Yes, this guy obviously knows what he's talking about. Think Murray only scores 3 in that game?
The league isn't going to allow Kyler Murray to slip. I refuse to believe it. But if dunce thinking prevails elsewhere then the Dolphins have to draft him and let the little guy run around and cause problems.
All it takes is one play for clarity. Literally one play. Murray avoids pursuers from multiple angles and extends the play before unleashing a downfield dagger. Then all the doubters are baffled. "He's very short. He was rattled against Alabama." Yes, that is all true. And now he's running around in quarterback friendly 2019, causing touchdowns. You can move on to your next evaluation. We're fine here.
It would be exactly the opposite of Ryan Tannehill, where one great play or great game basically meant nothing.
Murray could get hurt in a fluke situation. Held up by one guy and another guy supplements the tackle. Yikes. Don't want to look. Any player is susceptible to that type of thing. But play to play Murray can avoid defenders even if they are two feet away. Curl up into a little ball and hit the ground. Definitely requires less space than Russell Wilson for that type of thing. Likewise the darting moves in space. I wouldn't be worried at all.
Regarding Jared Goff, I went back and forth on him so many times at Cal. The strengths were obvious and so were the weaknesses. I remember I really liked him as a seldom mentioned sophomore, to the point I touted him here. Then I had my doubts due to the lack of athletic ability. ckparrothead at one point said Goff was more of a backup type, largely due to that same concern. That is not meant as a knock. I was thinking...wow he's really taking it to the extreme but I could see the basis for it. Take Jared Goff right now and put him in an unfavorable NFL situation and the fans could get restless and prefer him to the bench.
It is really a testament to McVay's coaching ability that he has surrounded and shielded Goff so well. But prior to the Super Bowl last weekend when the women in the room were excited at the prospect of a high scoring game, I said I didn't know what to expect from Goff and the Rams, that it was the widest potential distribution I could remember from an offense heading into a Super Bowl. I said they could play like early season, which would resemble Foles and the Eagles last season, or it could be an outright dud.
Late in the first quarter Carolyn spoke up: "We got the dud."
Yes, laughter accompanied. And there was no sense pretending that it wouldn't remain that way the remainder of the game. I was feeling bad for my long-suffering Rams fans from USC.
Dwayne Haskins has the same type of issues. I hope a more secure head coach picks him.
Way back to Doug Flutie, I'm not sure he terrorizes the league if allowed to play. Flutie always had accuracy problems, far beyond how it is remembered. His first season at Boston College in 1981 coincided with the first year I started betting on college football every week while in college. I liked that team because it would get blasted as underdog but could pick on lesser foes as favorite. Flutie was basically a 50% type in the early years and only a much improved senior season brought it up to 53% level for his college career. Then he was sub 55% in the NFL with basically no season above 57%. Granted, his prime was missing that that NFL block. Move to today and the defenses and rules are obviously different. I think he's good but not a star.
Ive been in a lot of conversations about Murray for which I’m advocating for..
This was good to see.
“Kyler Murray is the best qb I ever faced, the fastest qb I ever faced, he had me winded out there..”
“ Quinnen Williams”
Murray is special folks. I simply wish he was more committed to football at the moment, instead of bouncing around between baseball and football. He has time to commit but I need him fully committed to football
Well said..fully agree on both points..
With the rules evolving to protect the QB, combined with this kids ability to understand when to slide and get out of bounds, his athletic ability becomes even more dangerous..I have him as a triple threat QB..
Arm Talent is good, arm strength is there.
Scrambling to reset and throw on the move.
Strait up running on his own accord to set the threat.
I understand folks who are scared of the height and frame, but I don’t stick to the outlier philosophy... I think he’s built solidly, not slight.
IDK, if Rosen would not have had the concussions and come across Cutler like I might have had him a distant 2nd, but yeah, nowhere near Mayfield.