Linebackers, Linebackers please draft two linebackers
- Thread starter twix2500
- Start date
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Well I can tell you that a LOT of work went into these threads that Slimm started on the position. I know work when I see it. I know BS and shortcutting when I see them, too. And I think these threads are the former, not the latter.
http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?375693-Slimm-s-2017-Linebackers-(Underclassman)
http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?375692-Slimm-s-2017-Linebackers-(Seniors)
I personally have yet to look at Raekwon McMillan. But I thoroughly enjoy watching guys like Zach Cunningham, Reuben Foster, Jarrad Davis and Anthony Walker. These are guys that are real linebackers, inside linebackers or weak side linebackers. All of them very good.
Zach Cunningham plays in a defense which translates well to Miami's and I think of him as a nice cross between Karlos Dansby and K.J. Wright. He's good in all phases and his RANGE is usually what stands out most to me. I think Reuben Foster comes right out of a strong tradition at Bama and he's a pretty good Mike prospect. I love the way Jarrad Davis hits and the aggression with which he plays. You get the feeling you need a horse tranquilizer just to sit down and have a conversation with the kid, and I like that. Anthony Walker looked all-world in 2015 but then over-bulked for the scouts in 2016 and fought some injuries which made his year so-so. They also lost Dean Lowry up front, which didn't help. Still, an "off" year for Walker involved 105 tackles, 10 TFLs, 2 Sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles, 1 Interception, 1 Fumble Recovery and 5 Passes Defensed.
Two other guys that I really like, who satisfy the dual requirements of being able to run and being play makers, are Tyus Bowser and Matt Milano.
I think Bowser is such a natural cover guy with great hips and running ability, while also being a high impact pass rusher at Houston. He's got good NFL size and honestly you could be looking at a guy that plays similarly to Jamie Collins. He will fit most naturally and most immediately into the NFL as more of a Sam linebacker, but some teams will want their Sams to be even bigger than Bowser who is 6'2" and 240 lbs (personally I'm not worried because Bowser has long arms). That's one reason I bring up the possibility he plays similarly to a Collins.
As Milano, he's a total run-and-hit type of guy that seems to excel to some degree at pretty much anything. You can tell he's got that legitimate 4.6 speed, the type that makes you stand out on a college football field. He is definitely more of a Will, excels in pass rush, scraping from the back side of the play, etc. His size (6'0" and 221 lbs) is an issue and it does show up in his getting weeded up at times. If he were bigger, we'd be talking about a higher draft pick obviously.
Then you get to the outside "edge" guys (of which you could argue Bowser is technically one).
I adore T.J. Watt. He's so lengthy, physically STRONG, and he has the hand coordination of a middle aged sex worker. He plays with a reckless abandon that will need to be reined in a bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. His ability to see the football and react to it is just like his brother's. You could easily be comfortable with him as a 4-3 Sam, but he might be a little better off as a 3-4 OLB. His pass rush is good enough.
I don't know if I really consider Tim Williams in with this group as I think he's better off just putting his hand down and being a defensive end. But the thing that I love about him is his speed to power and outside pass rushes are not just deadly, but pretty well polished too. Those will be his bread and butter and he's excellent at them. Lengthy and fast enough with good hand placement and core strength. As a real outside linebacker say in a 4-3, I would worry about him being a bit much of an untrustworthy ****-up.
Takk McKinley is a conundrum. I think he compares a bit with Alvin Dupree who we just saw destroy Moore yesterday. He's got tons and tons of athletic ability and a high motor which is great because he's got 4.5x speed so if you have that kind of speed and you're generally motoring around really well then you're going to make a lot of plays. He's strong. But he's not very polished and I start to wonder, given his background and the track he took at UCLA, why that is the case. He's going to have to build his career off pass rush and quite frankly you can shut him down as a pass rusher because he's not creative or polished enough. You'd have to satisfy yourself that he can learn. But I wouldn't necessarily just assume it, as we saw with Dion Jordan. There are actually several things about him that remind of Jordan.
I would have Ryan Anderson somewhere around Takk McKinley, and which I prefer may be a question of system and need. If I have the patience and I'm up for a gamble, then perhaps McKinley. If I need an impact and a safer bet to be a good football player, perhaps Anderson. I think Ryan is underrated as a real linebacker prospect, Sam in a 4-3 with the possibility of getting his hand down and being compelling that way for a few snaps a game. He's a former five star recruit and a highly reliable player. Very strong. Good mobility. I don't think you're going to have to build his career off his pass rush ability unlike a Takk McKinley...which is good because Anderson's weakness is he's not all that explosive.
It's tough to know what to make of Haason Redick in the same way it's a challenge with Tyus Bowser sometimes. Haason is used as a pass rusher but he's not got the goods to be that in the NFL. But he DOES have a lot of speed, so the scouts will love that about him. I think Vince Biegel is a decent Sam prospect with good size, strength, hand use and instincts. He's not nearly as explosive as T.J. Watt but the Badgers found him as a senior a bit more reliable than Watt as a junior.
Ejuan Price is really tough to get a handle on. At times he looks like the best pass rusher in the class bar none. He's simply too quick for anyone to handle, and he's got some strength to his upper and lower body. It's eerie how similar it is to when I was watching Aaron Donald at this ridiculously small size be a ridiculously good defensive tackle. But then there are times a tackle seems like he's able to deal with Ejuan's speed and he gets shut down, and he's a blank for the game. Meanwhile, Price looks flat disinterested in doing anything other than rushing the passer at times, and that includes defending the run where he's an obvious liability. That makes you think he's purely a pass rush specialist on pass downs. Except a couple of times you see him peel off and cover a back out of the backfield REALLY well, and it makes you wonder if you can get him to do some versatile things after all. Probably the thing that hangs over all of is that he's a player that seems quick to burn out. You watch him and if he's been in for a stretch of plays, or it's the end of the half, etc...he's got nothing in the tank. I don't know if that's because he's so undersized he has to exert himself strength-wise too much just to even hang with the big boys, or if it's just an idiosyncratic failing of his. If it's not the latter then you wonder if you can get him to embrace a versatile set of responsibilities as a linebacker, would that actually save his energy a bit as it might be less taxing on him. But it could be he's a player you're just never going to want to have on the field more than 15-20 plays.
http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?375693-Slimm-s-2017-Linebackers-(Underclassman)
http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?375692-Slimm-s-2017-Linebackers-(Seniors)
I personally have yet to look at Raekwon McMillan. But I thoroughly enjoy watching guys like Zach Cunningham, Reuben Foster, Jarrad Davis and Anthony Walker. These are guys that are real linebackers, inside linebackers or weak side linebackers. All of them very good.
Zach Cunningham plays in a defense which translates well to Miami's and I think of him as a nice cross between Karlos Dansby and K.J. Wright. He's good in all phases and his RANGE is usually what stands out most to me. I think Reuben Foster comes right out of a strong tradition at Bama and he's a pretty good Mike prospect. I love the way Jarrad Davis hits and the aggression with which he plays. You get the feeling you need a horse tranquilizer just to sit down and have a conversation with the kid, and I like that. Anthony Walker looked all-world in 2015 but then over-bulked for the scouts in 2016 and fought some injuries which made his year so-so. They also lost Dean Lowry up front, which didn't help. Still, an "off" year for Walker involved 105 tackles, 10 TFLs, 2 Sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles, 1 Interception, 1 Fumble Recovery and 5 Passes Defensed.
Two other guys that I really like, who satisfy the dual requirements of being able to run and being play makers, are Tyus Bowser and Matt Milano.
I think Bowser is such a natural cover guy with great hips and running ability, while also being a high impact pass rusher at Houston. He's got good NFL size and honestly you could be looking at a guy that plays similarly to Jamie Collins. He will fit most naturally and most immediately into the NFL as more of a Sam linebacker, but some teams will want their Sams to be even bigger than Bowser who is 6'2" and 240 lbs (personally I'm not worried because Bowser has long arms). That's one reason I bring up the possibility he plays similarly to a Collins.
As Milano, he's a total run-and-hit type of guy that seems to excel to some degree at pretty much anything. You can tell he's got that legitimate 4.6 speed, the type that makes you stand out on a college football field. He is definitely more of a Will, excels in pass rush, scraping from the back side of the play, etc. His size (6'0" and 221 lbs) is an issue and it does show up in his getting weeded up at times. If he were bigger, we'd be talking about a higher draft pick obviously.
Then you get to the outside "edge" guys (of which you could argue Bowser is technically one).
I adore T.J. Watt. He's so lengthy, physically STRONG, and he has the hand coordination of a middle aged sex worker. He plays with a reckless abandon that will need to be reined in a bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. His ability to see the football and react to it is just like his brother's. You could easily be comfortable with him as a 4-3 Sam, but he might be a little better off as a 3-4 OLB. His pass rush is good enough.
I don't know if I really consider Tim Williams in with this group as I think he's better off just putting his hand down and being a defensive end. But the thing that I love about him is his speed to power and outside pass rushes are not just deadly, but pretty well polished too. Those will be his bread and butter and he's excellent at them. Lengthy and fast enough with good hand placement and core strength. As a real outside linebacker say in a 4-3, I would worry about him being a bit much of an untrustworthy ****-up.
Takk McKinley is a conundrum. I think he compares a bit with Alvin Dupree who we just saw destroy Moore yesterday. He's got tons and tons of athletic ability and a high motor which is great because he's got 4.5x speed so if you have that kind of speed and you're generally motoring around really well then you're going to make a lot of plays. He's strong. But he's not very polished and I start to wonder, given his background and the track he took at UCLA, why that is the case. He's going to have to build his career off pass rush and quite frankly you can shut him down as a pass rusher because he's not creative or polished enough. You'd have to satisfy yourself that he can learn. But I wouldn't necessarily just assume it, as we saw with Dion Jordan. There are actually several things about him that remind of Jordan.
I would have Ryan Anderson somewhere around Takk McKinley, and which I prefer may be a question of system and need. If I have the patience and I'm up for a gamble, then perhaps McKinley. If I need an impact and a safer bet to be a good football player, perhaps Anderson. I think Ryan is underrated as a real linebacker prospect, Sam in a 4-3 with the possibility of getting his hand down and being compelling that way for a few snaps a game. He's a former five star recruit and a highly reliable player. Very strong. Good mobility. I don't think you're going to have to build his career off his pass rush ability unlike a Takk McKinley...which is good because Anderson's weakness is he's not all that explosive.
It's tough to know what to make of Haason Redick in the same way it's a challenge with Tyus Bowser sometimes. Haason is used as a pass rusher but he's not got the goods to be that in the NFL. But he DOES have a lot of speed, so the scouts will love that about him. I think Vince Biegel is a decent Sam prospect with good size, strength, hand use and instincts. He's not nearly as explosive as T.J. Watt but the Badgers found him as a senior a bit more reliable than Watt as a junior.
Ejuan Price is really tough to get a handle on. At times he looks like the best pass rusher in the class bar none. He's simply too quick for anyone to handle, and he's got some strength to his upper and lower body. It's eerie how similar it is to when I was watching Aaron Donald at this ridiculously small size be a ridiculously good defensive tackle. But then there are times a tackle seems like he's able to deal with Ejuan's speed and he gets shut down, and he's a blank for the game. Meanwhile, Price looks flat disinterested in doing anything other than rushing the passer at times, and that includes defending the run where he's an obvious liability. That makes you think he's purely a pass rush specialist on pass downs. Except a couple of times you see him peel off and cover a back out of the backfield REALLY well, and it makes you wonder if you can get him to do some versatile things after all. Probably the thing that hangs over all of is that he's a player that seems quick to burn out. You watch him and if he's been in for a stretch of plays, or it's the end of the half, etc...he's got nothing in the tank. I don't know if that's because he's so undersized he has to exert himself strength-wise too much just to even hang with the big boys, or if it's just an idiosyncratic failing of his. If it's not the latter then you wonder if you can get him to embrace a versatile set of responsibilities as a linebacker, would that actually save his energy a bit as it might be less taxing on him. But it could be he's a player you're just never going to want to have on the field more than 15-20 plays.
DKphin
Active Roster
:lol2:
finbully
Practice Squad
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 379
- Reaction score
- 1
Where is TJ Watt projected to go? Has anybody tackled that yet?
Also, falling in love with Jarrad Davis. Straight up monster in the middle. So much attitude. Ability to disrupt. He plays so well in tight spaces and open spaces. Think he might be the mike we've been looking for. Absolute enforcer. Shows position versatility. Maybe paired with another versatile SOLB/pass rusher, we can emulate what Houston is doing with Mercilus and their lb corps. This is all speculation in the case Foster and Cunningham are off the board.
McMillan and Walker kind of spook me. Think there is a significant step down. Top 3 are naturals.
Also, falling in love with Jarrad Davis. Straight up monster in the middle. So much attitude. Ability to disrupt. He plays so well in tight spaces and open spaces. Think he might be the mike we've been looking for. Absolute enforcer. Shows position versatility. Maybe paired with another versatile SOLB/pass rusher, we can emulate what Houston is doing with Mercilus and their lb corps. This is all speculation in the case Foster and Cunningham are off the board.
McMillan and Walker kind of spook me. Think there is a significant step down. Top 3 are naturals.
LordTua
Lord Tua
I'm loving me so Jaraad Davis too. His motor is relentless and he lives to hit. Sheds blockers well and has good closing speed.
What's his injury history like? I know he's been hurt before just don't know if it's frequently or not
What's his injury history like? I know he's been hurt before just don't know if it's frequently or not
Raekwon had a so so year by his standards but he's every bit of the prospect davis is imo. They're both extremely similar players as well. Same size and relative build - their strength is the run game - both look okay in coverage but they aren't asked to do too much so that could honestly go either way - the combine is important for each of them in that regard. The only major difference that sticks out to me is davis is the more physical of the two ... he's a man in there taking on blockers and punishing ball carriers. I prefer davis because of that and he's a gator ... but if any of you remember McMillan was supposed to be a gator anyway and Meyer snatched him up at the last minute with 3 other guys with his 1st draft class iirc ... so I wouldn't be too upset to get him back. This is NOT a saban/ Jason Allen situation.
They should both go somewhere early in the 2nd ... only because of how stacked this class is at the top. They both fit what we'd like to do in the middle as well. I'd take foster, cunningham, davis, or McMillan with that first rounder depending on how it falls ... in that order.
Then I'd be looking at watt (he may go in the first ... thanks bro), evans (did he declare?), walker, and McKinley in the second.
Then I'd be looking at taylor, anderson, biegel, kiser, and reeves-mabin in the 3rd.
Then I'd be looking at brown, bullough, munson, and Ellis in the 4th.
Then I'd be looking at Milano in the 5th.
Then I'd be looking for anzalone in the 6th.
Then I'd be looking for whoever else is on the board in the 7th.
Really can't stress enough how bad we need linebackers ...
They should both go somewhere early in the 2nd ... only because of how stacked this class is at the top. They both fit what we'd like to do in the middle as well. I'd take foster, cunningham, davis, or McMillan with that first rounder depending on how it falls ... in that order.
Then I'd be looking at watt (he may go in the first ... thanks bro), evans (did he declare?), walker, and McKinley in the second.
Then I'd be looking at taylor, anderson, biegel, kiser, and reeves-mabin in the 3rd.
Then I'd be looking at brown, bullough, munson, and Ellis in the 4th.
Then I'd be looking at Milano in the 5th.
Then I'd be looking for anzalone in the 6th.
Then I'd be looking for whoever else is on the board in the 7th.
Really can't stress enough how bad we need linebackers ...
dolfan3431
Wanna hit?
Grabbing Zach Cunningham in the first and Jarrad Davis in the 2nd is both ideal and realistic. This draft is deep in LBs, a position that doesn't necessarily go high in the draft, so grabbing two solid guys shouldn't be hard. We can grab a great TE prospect in the 3rd, since this draft is also deep there. I'm hoping Njoku slips through the cracks there. Unlikely, but possible seeing the depth at TE this year.
finbully
Practice Squad
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 379
- Reaction score
- 1
With the more vods i watch, it really is amazing to notice the absolute abundance of talents available early in this draft. It kinda rules seeing as we pick so late. Though i'm not sure about Davis being available with our second.
I'm going to go back and watch some McMillan again, but I noticed he tends to misread plays quite a bit. So much so that it was a bit concerning.
Also, i want to keep an eye on Kendall Beckwith's recovery. I like him with a later pick.
I'm going to go back and watch some McMillan again, but I noticed he tends to misread plays quite a bit. So much so that it was a bit concerning.
Also, i want to keep an eye on Kendall Beckwith's recovery. I like him with a later pick.
It's the deepest LB class I can think of off the top of my head. Should be bona-fide talent in nearly every round.
Buyer beware on beckwith. He's not gonna give you much of anything in pass pro. Kendall Shepard 2.0.
finbully
Practice Squad
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 379
- Reaction score
- 1
Pretty much, but i like the idea of him replacing Misi at SOLB. Plus maybe some late round depth. Just another option.
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 25,608
- Reaction score
- 35,910
Great discussion. LOL CK on the TJ Watts use of hands comments. Priceless.
Watts looks awfully good to me, maybe a first rounder there. I'm a big fan of Davis as well. I would love Watts/Davis R1 and R2 and move Alonso to the weakside, which I think is better for him. Might be hard to pass up a corner like Humphreys in R1, though, if he falls.
My question to the board is how do we defend that quick passing game that killed us at the end of the season? Miami can't match up with the quicks and speed the Patriots and Steelers put out there. Is that a LB issue mostly, slot corner? I know it's a lack of talent issue for the Dolphins for sure. Just kills me how Brady, in particularly, had to do so little to exploit Miami. I don't know if he threw more than three passes that traveled 10 yards in the air.
That leads me to players like Peppers or other hybrid types that could help Miami solve that short passing game. Opinions?
Watts looks awfully good to me, maybe a first rounder there. I'm a big fan of Davis as well. I would love Watts/Davis R1 and R2 and move Alonso to the weakside, which I think is better for him. Might be hard to pass up a corner like Humphreys in R1, though, if he falls.
My question to the board is how do we defend that quick passing game that killed us at the end of the season? Miami can't match up with the quicks and speed the Patriots and Steelers put out there. Is that a LB issue mostly, slot corner? I know it's a lack of talent issue for the Dolphins for sure. Just kills me how Brady, in particularly, had to do so little to exploit Miami. I don't know if he threw more than three passes that traveled 10 yards in the air.
That leads me to players like Peppers or other hybrid types that could help Miami solve that short passing game. Opinions?
Phinatic8u
Club Member
I want a Mike backer, but OJ Howard will be hard to pass up on if he's there. Really ****ing hard.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Jarrad Davis may be my favorite realistic prospect at pick #22. Perfect for the Mike position in this defense, pair him with Kiko Alonso. I just love guys with that much aggressiveness. Deion Jones was a really fun prospect to watch and grade. For Deion, the speed was what brought you to the table, but the aggressiveness is what got you to order the steak dinner. Same with Jarrad Davis. He's not as fast, obviously. He's stronger. He can HIT. Affects the game in so many ways. And he is an undisputed leader on that defense, warrior, locker room guy. Coach McIlwaine said he's been the heartbeat of the defense for four years. He's Jarvis Landry on defense.
It will be revealing to see how these guys perform in Indy though. That's always important regardless of what the people trying to sound smart say.
It will be revealing to see how these guys perform in Indy though. That's always important regardless of what the people trying to sound smart say.
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 25,608
- Reaction score
- 35,910
Jarvis Landry of the defense....sign me up! What's your thoughts on Peppers?
Philbin's Polo
Practice Squad
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2015
- Messages
- 569
- Reaction score
- 2
As a huge Badger fan, I watched every game of T.J Watt's career. He is an excellent player. Bloodlines aside, he has the capacity to be a dominant edge rusher, he plays the run well, he has his brother's motor, he played through a shoulder injury most of the season, and at 6'5 245 he has the frame to put on 20 pounds pretty easily.
I am very bullish on him.
I am very bullish on him.