Math and why to trade down. | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Math and why to trade down.

NY8123

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Number 1 picks of the last 20 years
WTP = Worth the pick, NWTP = Not worth the pick or Neutral.

1988 Atlanta Aundray Bruce, LB 11 years no significant achievements NWTP.
1989 Dallas Troy Aikman, QB WTP, Hall of fame
1990 Indianapolis Jeff George, QB 15 years 27,602 yards, NWTP.
1991 Dallas Russell Maryland, DT 10 years NWTP
1992 Indianapolis Steve Emtman, DT Bust, NWTP
1993 New England Drew Bledsoe, QB WTP, Hall of fame probably not.
1994 Cincinnati Dan Wilkinson, DT NWTP
1995 Cincinnati Ki-Jana Carter, RB Ha! Lol do I even have to tell you, NWTP
1996 NY Jets Keyshawn Johnson, WR Neutral, argument can be made both ways.
1997 St. Louis Orlando Pace, OT Franchise tackle, WTP.
1998 Indianapolis Peyton Manning, QB Franchise QB, more than likely in the hall, WTP
1999 Cleveland Tim Couch, QB Huge bust NWTP
2000 Cleveland Courtney Brown, DE Bust, NWTP
2001 Atlanta Michael Vick, QB I will let you all debate this one but I say NWTP
2002 Houston David Carr, QB Too close to call, needs more time.
2003 Cincinnati Carson Palmer, QB Good QB, WTP
2004 San Diego Eli Manning, QB Good QB, WTP
2005 San Francisco Alex Smith, QB Needs time
2006 Houston Mario Williams, DE Needs time
2007 Oakland JaMarcus Russell, QB Needs time

Statistical break down,

I will exclude Alex Smith, Mario Williams and JaMarcus Russel due to lack of playing time, bad team etc… Note: I will say it looks like Smith may shape up to be a NWTP and Williams being a WTP. (Hind sight is 20/20 see Mike Vick, if you think he was worth the pick ask yourself if you would rather have Dew Brees leading the Phins or Vick regardless of jail time). That leaves this;

17 players of witch 9 are NWTP hands down, 1 or 2 neutrals (depending if you agree with my assessments) and 6 that are hands down worth the number one overall pick (valued at 3000 points). That equates to a 33.3% chance that Miami has a number 1 pick that is WTP or for all you pessimists out there a 66.6% failure chance to further set the dolphins back franchise wise.

This is why I say Parcells and Ireland have the right idea of trading the pick. Reduce the value and investment of the pick by spreading it over several picks and/or a proven player(s). Of course the two obvious trade down choices would be Dallas and New England but there are a couple scenarios that would have the Ravens, Bears and Cinci trading up also. With the huge amount of cash needed to lock up the number 1 overall pick there is almost no value in keeping the pick given the numbers. It makes better business sense to trade down and add numbers, increasing the chance to find another Zack Thomas or Jason Taylor in later rounds. Strength in numbers I say!
 
I agree completely with trading down, that factored with who is available in this draft, Dorsey great player but doesn't fit our 3-4 scheme, Chris Long who i really like but again not sure if he fits out scheme and do we really want to pay 20+ signing bonus for a 3-4 DE, Mcfadden great play but we have WAY too many other need to tie up that much money in a Running back. Matt Ryan i have not been impressed by him he seems to play bad in the big games. and Jake Long might be a reach at #1 overall. Best case scenario in my opinion is if we can some how drop to the 4-8 range plus pick up some more picks and draft Kenny Phillips who has moved up in the draft rankings (according to the below site) to 5th best player or Jake Long there if still available .


http://nfldraft.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=767131
 
Looks good. I think Williams was worth the pick ahead of vince and bush. Its finally coming to everyone's attention.

and peyton more than likely in the hall? I'm sure you can write one day HOF. Seems like a safte bet.

I agree the top pick is not always the best thing. And if the phins could trade down i would be extatic. The only problem is, is someone willing to give up enough value. We shall find that out in the comming months.

But nice break down. THanks
 
I agree with almost everything you said except I think that David Carr is in fact a bust, he is no longer a starter in the NFL.
 
FWIW, Stephen Jones (Jerry Jones' son....who is also handles player contracts and negotiations) came out today and said Barber is Dallas' future at RB. And that resigning him long term was the highest priority. And that they were going to work with Rosenhaus to get it done.
 
Steve Emtman was a complete beast before he blew out his knee. KiJana Carter's knee was wrecked before he even played a regular season down and he was one of the most highly regarded RBs ever coming out of college. By including these guys as busts is a bit like saying Bo Jackson was a bust because he only played for 4 seasons.
 
Steve Emtman was a complete beast before he blew out his knee. KiJana Carter's knee was wrecked before he even played a regular season down and he was one of the most highly regarded RBs ever coming out of college. By including these guys as busts is a bit like saying Bo Jackson was a bust because he only played for 4 seasons.


I love Bo Jackson, I think he might have been the best back the game produced better then my top two ever Walter Payton and Jim Brown but and the big but here is he wasn't. His hip blew out. Done. My point is mitigate the risk over several picks and players so your eggs are not in one basket. Manage around the Jackson, Carter and Emtman syndrome. Injury or not they were all busts for the amount of money tied up in each player.
 
The problem is that the percent chance of getting a good player drops as you get lower in the draft (even in the first round). You get more chances at getting a "hit", but the chances themselves more remote. You don't want to trade down and get 4 Matt Roth's, insteading of picking the next Reggie White.

Check out JJ's 1999 draft. He traded down a bunch and got zero.

Does it make sense to trade down sometimes and get more picks? Absolutely. If we don't like the players available at #1, then try to trade down. Don't trade down if you think we can get a stud at #1 just to get more picks.
 
I couldn't agree more and think that we must be willing to get less than 3000 points also.

Totally agree. I think that trade value chart is outdated, and with no homerun prospect in this year's class (of all the year's to have the #1 overall pick) I think we'll have to settle for a little less.

I think Atlanta, if they lose that coin-toss and move back to #4 or #5 could be our best bet, and there's still a chance at Chris or Jake Long there, as well as Gholston and Sedrick Ellis almost assuredly there. Also, I believe Atlanta has multiple picks in the 2nd round, which if I'm Parcells/Ireland, is pretty enticing if a trade can be worked out. We may not end up with both of them, but one more gives us 3 picks in round 2.
 
I love Bo Jackson, I think he might have been the best back the game produced better then my top two ever Walter Payton and Jim Brown but and the big but here is he wasn't. His hip blew out. Done. My point is mitigate the risk over several picks and players so your eggs are not in one basket. Manage around the Jackson, Carter and Emtman syndrome. Injury or not they were all busts for the amount of money tied up in each player.

Exactly, "but" lies, darn lies, and statistics, for non QB or Rb picks, the record is murky and individualized.

Will Doresy be Wilkerson? Or Emtman?

Will Chris Long be C Brown?

Statistics do not measure those things.
 
I love Bo Jackson, I think he might have been the best back the game produced better then my top two ever Walter Payton and Jim Brown but and the big but here is he wasn't. His hip blew out. Done. My point is mitigate the risk over several picks and players so your eggs are not in one basket. Manage around the Jackson, Carter and Emtman syndrome. Injury or not they were all busts for the amount of money tied up in each player.

But by mitigating the risks you are also mitigating the chance of getting someone great. Many more top 5 overall go one to stellar careers that those picked 6-10 and after 10 overall it's basically a crap shoot.
 
Didnt like how you said David Carr is kinda WTP. And Keyshawn is debatable??

I just don't agree with that, the rest is good. I Say Keep the pick and just go with the flow.
 
I see a trend in QB being WTP 6 to 4 NWTP, along with big OT. Also, not one DL/DT were WTP.

It makes me think twice on Long or Dorsey!
 
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