Math to the Draft: TEs - Fleener v. Allen | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Math to the Draft: TEs - Fleener v. Allen

NUGap

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*Standard Disclaimer* I've agreed to do a post every week until the draft breaking down some of the metrics of the draft. In honor of NFL Network's Path to the Draft, this weekly post will be Math to the Draft. Each week I'll be looking at a position group, a player, or actual statistics about the NFL Draft and I'll be posting them exclusively in the VIP forum for a week before moving them to the main draft forum. Hope y'all enjoy.

This week, I wanted to break down some of the stats behind the two top consensus Tight Ends in the NFL Draft, Coby Fleener from Stanford and Dwayne Allen from Clemson. Although there are many pressing needs for the Dolphins, a seam-stretching, receiver of a TE could be a good weapon for future Dolphin QBs. In light of that, I wanted to look at the routes, distances, and blocking of these two late 1st round, early second round prospects.

Routes Run:

I'm going to break this down kind of like how I did with the Quarterbacks, I'm going to start with the distances and locations of the routes these players run. Obviously, the routes they run are a product of the coaching and the scheme, but we can get a sense for how and where they are used to running in the college game.
============FleenerAllen
RoutesTotal%Total%
Screen0.005.04
1-5 Yards23.2831.65
5-10 Yards22.4122.30
10-20 Yards37.9324.46
20 + Yards16.3816.55


I watched 5 games each and noted the distance of every route they ran. Luckily the ACC and Pac-12 have camera angles conducive to seeing the whole field. So for instance, we see that 32% of Allen's routes were within 1-5 yards.

In addition, I thought it would be interesting to see where the routes were ending horizontally on the field. I broke the field up into a section from the:
Left Sideline to the Left Hashes to the Center to the Right Hashes to the Right Sideline

L-HashHash-MidMid-HashHash - R
L-R Zone%Throw%Throw%Throw--%Throw
Fleener31.0320.6925.0023.28
Allen35.2517.9915.1131.65

Notes:
  • I found the amount of 1-5 yard routes that Allen ran interesting, over 33% of his routes were within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. That doesn't preclude him from being a deep threat, but it is his most route run zone, not the deeper 11-20 or 20+ zones
  • A huge amount of Fleener's routes were in the 11-20 range and over 50% of his routes were past 11 yards, which bodes well for him as a future deep threat- at least in terms of being used to running these type of routes
  • They are almost identical in terms of 20+ routes run
  • Both of their route zones are fairly well distributed, neither of them is running any route way more and ignoring another zone
  • Fleener's routes are more likely to be between the hashes than Allen - Allen runs about 66% of his routes outside the hashes while Fleener has almost an even distribution across the horizontal stretch of the field
Zones & Catch Locations:

But routes are great and all, but let's look at where they actually catch the ball. These are the number of catches in a zone as a percentage of their total catches. For example if you see 33% of 11-20 are catches, that means that out of the 12 balls he caught, 4 were in that range. It's not a percentage of the total targets. Also in this stat, I pretended as if all misses from the QBs were caught. This includes Interceptions, Deflections, and straight up misses. The only incompletions are drops. This is the PQB, or Perfect Quaterback rating

===========FleenerAllen
Catch%Catch%
Screen0.005.71
1-5 Yards 33.3325.71
5-10 Yards11.1131.43
10-20 Yards38.8922.86
20 + Yards16.6714.29
  • Found it interesting that 33% of Fleener's catches were 1-5 yard range. Despite running far more deep routes, we see a pretty solid amount of his catches coming from the short game
  • However, we still see a huge amount of catches in the 10-20 yard range at 39%. He caught over 50% of his balls past 10 yards.
  • This is in contrast to Dwayne Allen. 66% of Allen's catches were either screens or within 1-10 yards of the LOS
  • The majority of Allen's catches come from the 5-10 yard range, mostly on In/Dig Routes and Curl Routes
Target Percentage:

One more stat in the passing game, before we move to blocking/ total plays. Like I said, I counted their total targets from the Quarterbacks, Andrew Luck and Tahj Boyd.
  • Out of all of Luck's throw attempts during the games I looked at, Fleener received 12.7% of Luck's total targets
  • Out of all of Boyd's throw attempts, Allen received 19.9% of Boyd's total targets
  • Those don't really mean anything, I wouldn't say that because Fleener received less targets he's less awesome or anything. I just wanted to put the number out there for anyone interested.
Blocking:

I didn't try to really quantify any aspects of blocking, or quality of blocking. I just looked at the quantity of plays they were either pass blocking, run blocking or running routes. Here are essentially per game averages for Run Blocking, Pass Blocking, and Routes Run
GameAvgFleenerAllen
Run11.421.4
Pass23.227.8
Pass Block5.312.2
  • Allen played far more snaps on the whole during a game than did Fleener. If you add those up, Fleener was averaging 39 snaps per game and Allen was averaging 61 snaps per game
  • Fleener was hardly in to block on pass plays, that's not to say he's not a good pass blocker, but over the course of a season he has far less experience than Allen in pass blocking
  • Allen also was in on double the run plays, often leading through the hole for the RB in an almost FB type of role or on the playside. Versus Fleener who was more likely to be on the back-side of the play
Frankly after watching both players and seeing the numbers, I'm convinced that Allen is the more complete TE. He has the experience in all different roles, FB, split out WR and in-line TE. However, Fleener is definitely a great receiving threat. After Fleener's numbers at the pro-day today, I have no doubt that he can be a great seam-stretching TE. Take a look at the numbers, would you want Allen in the second round? Would you want want Fleener in a trade back in the 1st? Just food for thought. Hope you guys enjoyed it.
 
This is a MUCH better thread than any of the standard statistic threads.

FinHeaven VIP needs more of this.
 
Good info, Allen definitely seems like he is the most complete TE in this draft . . . but Fleener has so much upside that he deserves the higher rating.

If Miami is looking for a seam buster (which I think they are) . . . Fleener is your guy. How much of an upgrade is Allen from Charles Clay with 1 year of NFL experience?
 
Excellent work yet again nugap! thanks for bringing your talents to the viper room!
 
I think Allen has a higher upside than Clay. Allen has fantastic hands and can catch pretty much anything. I need to take a look at how Philbin and the WCO will use the TE, but Allen has the versatility to play pretty much anywhere. It does bother me that he's only 6'3", I would prefer a guy to complement Clay/Fasano that's taller, 6'5" and up. I mean Hernandez has had success in the NE offense, but he has Gronkowski who is a giant. if you watch Allen's tape though, he actually helps substantially with the Clemson offense. He knows where guys are sup

Personally, I've seen each Stanford game about 4 times, between looking at Luck, Martin, DeCastro, and Fleener - and since the middle of the college season, I was a fan of Fleener. I thought people were criminally underrating him for his size, speed and ball skills. I don't think he's going to be a dominant blocker in pass or run situations, but that's not his job. His job is to get up the field and get open, and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't take Fleener inside the top 10 or anything, but I would take him between 15-20.
 
I think Allen has a higher upside than Clay. Allen has fantastic hands and can catch pretty much anything. I need to take a look at how Philbin and the WCO will use the TE, but Allen has the versatility to play pretty much anywhere. It does bother me that he's only 6'3", I would prefer a guy to complement Clay/Fasano that's taller, 6'5" and up. I mean Hernandez has had success in the NE offense, but he has Gronkowski who is a giant. if you watch Allen's tape though, he actually helps substantially with the Clemson offense. He knows where guys are sup

Personally, I've seen each Stanford game about 4 times, between looking at Luck, Martin, DeCastro, and Fleener - and since the middle of the college season, I was a fan of Fleener. I thought people were criminally underrating him for his size, speed and ball skills. I don't think he's going to be a dominant blocker in pass or run situations, but that's not his job. His job is to get up the field and get open, and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't take Fleener inside the top 10 or anything, but I would take him between 15-20.

AND, that's why I am hoping he falls to us at the 2-9.

I think Philbin would LOVE to have a Jermichael Findley type. More tallish athlete than blocker. His entire offense is predicated on quick route, release and go. The short to intermediate to the TE, opens up the seam, wheel and go routes for the guys on the outside...and I think Fleener would be very good at such routes...then again, I think Clay, especially as H or out of the backfield accomplishes that...and actually, so does R. Bush.

As always, love your insight NUGap. Great great stuff!!!
 
Just took a look at a few Green Bay games, just to get an idea of the TE route tree. You're absolutely right on the roles of the TE.

I saw a lot of 5 yard outs, 5-10 yard curls and 5-10 yard digs from Jermichael Finley, but then occasionally he would go deep on a post and he would be open because the LBs just weren't ready for it. Which means he has to have that speed and ability to get open each time he's going to run the post because the ball is going there. I see that from Fleener and not necessarily Allen. If I were the Jets or another run-heavy team, I would probably pick Allen in a heartbeat. I think Allen is a very solid overall players. However for the Dolphins, I think Fleener is the right pick, even if Clay weren't on the team.

Just for anyone who decides to watch an old Packer's game. Watch 83 Tom Crabtree and 84 DJ Williams for how Clay will be used next year (or probably even Allen in a similar offense)
 
Another thing that isn't going to show up on ANY tape, but in my mind can't be ignored.

While I respect Clemson as a University, cmon, it's NOT Stanford. There is an IQ intangible with Fleener that will create results that don't show up on tape or stat sheets.

IF Fleener is still there at 2-9, Philbin is whipping Ireland the entire way to the podium.

HELL, if Fleener is still there at `1-28, don't be surprised to see us give up the 3rd rounder and then some to go after him. He is a perfect fit for what Philbin is going to want to run. Won't even need to teach him the route-trees', he already knows them by heart.


All that being said, I go back to something that really really worries me. It's great having a guy like Fleener lined up in there, but the fact we didn't seriously upgrade the RT position means we are limited to what we would be able to do with a guy like Fleener, or even Allen. Those guys will have be later to release cause they can't rely on the RT to stay out of Moore's face long enough.... THAT is where I have a falling down with what has...or more accurately, hasn't transpired in this FA so far.
 
I am really hoping Fleener is a Dolphin. It has been a long time since we have had any real tight end in this team and Fleener will be used just like Finley was in Green Bay as it has been pointed out already. This guy is the same size as Gronk but ten pounds lighter. Not to mention he would open up our passing game like I think they want. Would take a lot of pressure off of the WR as it looks now that everything will be getting done by committee.
 
Just took a look at a few Green Bay games, just to get an idea of the TE route tree. You're absolutely right on the roles of the TE.

I saw a lot of 5 yard outs, 5-10 yard curls and 5-10 yard digs from Jermichael Finley, but then occasionally he would go deep on a post and he would be open because the LBs just weren't ready for it. Which means he has to have that speed and ability to get open each time he's going to run the post because the ball is going there. I see that from Fleener and not necessarily Allen. If I were the Jets or another run-heavy team, I would probably pick Allen in a heartbeat. I think Allen is a very solid overall players. However for the Dolphins, I think Fleener is the right pick, even if Clay weren't on the team.

Just for anyone who decides to watch an old Packer's game. Watch 83 Tom Crabtree and 84 DJ Williams for how Clay will be used next year (or probably even Allen in a similar offense)

why am i watching crabtree when trying to see how clay fits in this philbin o??? crabtree is a beast of a blocker...clay is not and never will be...dj williams who didn't get much run last year is a better comparison and guy to key

and as for dwayne allen has more talent and upside than clay that should be pretty obvious if you study the tape...dwayne allen is more complete a te than coby fleener who is more your vertical seam route and large catch radius and can be split out like finley to take advantage of matchups against safeties etc by play design...
 
Both of these guys are good but I would rather take LaDarius Green if he is there in the 3rd round....he didn't get as much publicity as he plays for the Louisiana Lafayette Rajun Cajuns, but check out his highlights on YouTube if you havent seen him play...he is a beast.
 
Great thread, thanks for your hard work.

I watched tape of both these tight ends and im more than convinced also that allen is the better option, but i believe neither will even make it to round 2.
 
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