Mel Kiper- Jake Long is a Left Tackle | Page 7 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Mel Kiper- Jake Long is a Left Tackle

Thats your opinion but does not make it so. Most sources had Carey late first round to early second. Some people thought Ginn was a reach some did not.
Its all just opinions one way or another. Carey was considered somewhat of an undeacheiver and a slow learner in college and had played almost no left tackle . One game when Mckinnie was hurt.


Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.
 
here are some examples I dont remember any sources rating Carey that high
first scott wright of nfl countdown

. New York Giants (f/SD): Eli Manning, QB, Ole Miss
2. Oakland Raiders: Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa
3. Arizona Cardinals: Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pittsburgh
4. San Diego Chargers (f/NYG): Philip Rivers, QB, North Carolina St.
5. Washington Redskins: Sean Taylor, S, Miami (FL)
6. Detroit Lions: Roy Williams, WR, Texas
7. Cleveland Browns: Kellen Winslow Jr, TE, Miami (FL)
8. Atlanta Falcons: DeAngelo Hall, CB, Virginia Tech
9. Jacksonville Jaguars: Kenechi Udeze, DE, U.S.C.
10. Houston Texans: Dunta Robinson, CB, South Carolina
11. Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Miami (FL)
12. New York Jets: Jonathan Vilma, ILB, Miami (FL)
13. Buffalo Bills: Lee Evans, WR, Wisconsin
14. Chicago Bears: Tommie Harris, DT, Oklahoma
15. Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Michael Clayton, WR, L.S.U.
16. San Francisco 49'ers: Rashaun Woods, WR, Oklahoma St.
17. Denver Broncos (f/CIN): Steven Jackson, RB, Oregon St.
18. New Orleans Saints: D.J. Williams, OLB, Miami (FL)
19. Minnesota Vikings: Will Smith, DE, Ohio St.
20. Miami Dolphins: Reggie Williams, WR, Washington
21. New England Patriots (f/BAL): Marcus Tubbs, DT, Texas
22. Dallas Cowboys: Shawn Andrews, OT-OG, Arkansas
23. Seattle Seahawks: Vince Wilfork, DT, Miami (FL)
24. Cincinnati Bengals, (f/DEN): Chris Gamble, CB, Ohio St.
25. Green Bay Packers: J.P. Losman, QB, Tulane
26. St. Louis Rams: Antwan Odom, DE, Alabama
27. Tennessee Titans: Darnell Dockett, DT, Florida St.
28. Philadelphia Eagles: Kevin Jones, RB, Virginia Tech
29. Indianapolis Colts: Karlos Dansby, OLB, Auburn
30. Kansas City Chiefs: Terry Johnson, DT, Washington
31. Carolina Panthers: Matt Ware, CB-S, U.C.L.A.
32. New England Patriots: Justin Smiley, OG, Alabama


From SI
[FONT=helvetica,arial]32 [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]
patriots_30-1.gif
[/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]T [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]Vernon Carey [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]Miami (Fla.) [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]6'5" [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]360[/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]Sr. [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,arial]Mea culpa: Va. Tech's Jake Grove was slotted here; Pats fans were quick to remind me Dan Koppen will be the O-line anchor for many years. Carey can play guard or tackle, as needed[/FONT]

So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.
 
So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.

Not only that, but any other mock showing Carey as going at a different spot he dismisses as just another mock draft. Duplicitous, but par for the course.
 
i dont know if he is a RT or a LT. from what i have seen he is a beast, and i am an ohio state fan. But with me seeing vernon gholston dominate him in the ohio state- michigan game. chances are that gholston could get drafted by either pats or jets...a good chance, and i dont know if i like that. with that said i definately dont think he is number 1 overall, especially since the OT class is DEEP this year, I 'd rather take chris long, dorsey and even ryan over jake, and i am a big supporter of Beck.
 
Not only that, but any other mock showing Carey as going at a different spot he dismisses as just another mock draft. Duplicitous, but par for the course.



What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.
 
So you are using mock drafts as your reason for saying Carey was a reach at #19? Umm...okay.

I used that to show where people had him graded. Please show me any actual draft boards that any of us are privy to. Nobody on this board has produced any to this point. What else could I show to try to show the point that most draft gurus had him rated as a late first round to early first round pick. I'm curious , really give me a valid answer. I guess with your logic we can never say that anyone is a reach since none of us know the inner workings of these NFL teams. So if we take Matt Ryan lets not hear any comments about reach. Teams were not sure if Carey was a guard or a tackle at the NFL level and most teams were not sold on him as being a left tackle since he only played one game there in college. He was supposed to be Mckinnie's replacement but ended up playing RT and guard for Miami.
 
What mock draft did I dismiss. The only mocks that showed Carey were the ones that I showed. I said clearly you might have some boards that had Carey going higher but the vast majority of mocks had him as a late first round to high second round pick. What mock did I dismiss and my opinion was not just based on mocks I was just showing an example. Nobody showed any proof of how teams had these guys rated. Minnesota admitted that they bamboozled us into trading up and no other team confirmed that they was going to trade up and get him. NE was not going to choose him over Vince Wilfork for sure. Shane Andrews had just went off the board and we somewhat overdrafted Carey because our GM went into panic mode. When it comes to the term reach its somewhat speculative, we needed a lineman and we took him slightly early. Much like this year with Ginn, nobody had Ginn rated to go this high but he was the next best player on offense that was not a running back so thats who we took since we liked him better than Quinn. Carey was very highly touted coming out of high school and somewhat less highly touted coming out of college. I love some on this board we disagree and no facts are shown that disprove me but my take gets attacked without any proof that I am incorrect. Not one draft source that I checked that year had Carey going that high. Sometimes players go higher when teams draft by need rather than BPA and that year we went by need. Most people thought we reached somehwhat on Ginn this year and almost no mock from any reputable source had him going this high. As for Houston picking him, its possible but I dont really buy it being that they had a great special teams player already and had much greater needs than WR. I'm pretty sure if Okaye is there and Ginn is there they still take Okaye. If you disagree with me fine but to bash my take is baseless especially the comment about me be duplicitous and thats par for the course for me. I tryed to support my argument and I get attacked for it, now thats funny. I never once attacked anyone's opinion, I only disagreed with it. Just because an opinion is not as popular on our board as others make it no less accurate or viable. Scott Wright and Mel Kiper as well as the majority of so called gurus had him rated to be drafted late first or early second.

U could find many quotes where he was rated lower also. All draft boards are differant.

Right there is where you dismissed it. You then proceeded to follow that up with posts of other draft boards!

You also neglect the fact that the Pats were going to trade up to get him.

Just face the facts - Carey was drafted at 19, and that's where he went and it was a good deal.
 
Right there is where you dismissed it. You then proceeded to follow that up with posts of other draft boards!

You also neglect the fact that the Pats were going to trade up to get him.

Just face the facts - Carey was drafted at 19, and that's where he went and it was a good deal.

Minnesota admitted that they bluffed us about NE moving up to that pick. I guess you did not get the memo. That report was false and thier GM admitted it. As it turned out the pick of Carey at 19n was not a bad pick but that has nothing to do whether he was a reach at the time. Tim Bowens was a huge reach when we drafted him but it turned out great. Wade Smith was a major reach in the third round and we all know how that turned out.
I did not dismiss it I said that they were all differant and u might find a few that had him rated where we picked him. I research over 20 well respected sites each year and cannot recall one having him go to us or earlier than about 24th. I guess no team has ever reached on a player by your logic because once they get picked there they are not a reach. This was not a debate about whether Carey has turned into a good NFL Player. My only complaint when we drafted Carey was that we gave away a 4th round pick because we were idiots and I was proven right by the Minnesota GM. We needed a lineman and I understand supply and demand might outweigh best player available at times.
 
Minnesota admitted that they bluffed us about NE moving up to that pick. I guess you did not get the memo. That report was false and thier GM admitted it. As it turned out the pick of Carey at 19n was not a bad pick but that has nothing to do whether he was a reach at the time. Tim Bowens was a huge reach when we drafted him but it turned out great. Wade Smith was a major reach in the third round and we all know how that turned out.
I did not dismiss it I said that they were all differant and u might find a few that had him rated where we picked him. I research over 20 well respected sites each year and cannot recall one having him go to us or earlier than about 24th. I guess no team has ever reached on a player by your logic because once they get picked there they are not a reach. This was not a debate about whether Carey has turned into a good NFL Player. My only complaint when we drafted Carey was that we gave away a 4th round pick because we were idiots and I was proven right by the Minnesota GM. We needed a lineman and I understand supply and demand might outweigh best player available at times.

Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.
 
Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

You cannot say with any certainty that the Pats would have chose Carey over Wilfork. At 20 Carey by most self proclaimed gurus was a reach,obvuously we wanted Carey, that does not prove he was not a reach.
You have no proof that NE was going to take Carey especially with Wilfork on the board. Im pretty sure even Boomer did not have Carey rated higher than Wilfork. I still stand by that we should have taken Wilfork in the draft that year but Carey has been fine. Please though find anyone that had Carey rated over Wilfork as a prospect. And please tell me that it was smart move to trade up one spot to get a guy that was going to be there at 20 anyway.
 
You cannot say with any certainty that the Pats would have chose Carey over Wilfork. At 20 Carey by most self proclaimed gurus was a reach,obvuously we wanted Carey, that does not prove he was not a reach.
You have no proof that NE was going to take Carey especially with Wilfork on the board. Im pretty sure even Boomer did not have Carey rated higher than Wilfork. I still stand by that we should have taken Wilfork in the draft that year but Carey has been fine. Please though find anyone that had Carey rated over Wilfork as a prospect. And please tell me that it was smart move to trade up one spot to get a guy that was going to be there at 20 anyway.

Levi Jones was a reach. Ted Ginn was not a reach. Vernon Carey was not a reach.

You still haven't addressed the issue that the trade up of one spot to get Carey was a decision predicated by the front office believing that the Pats were going to trade up to get them. That's the information they had to work with, and that's what they made their decision on. One spot does not constitute a reach. That's why Levi Jones is a reach, and Ted Ginn and Vernon Carey are not.
 
Pfft. You can't have a reach if you're not reaching. One spot early isn't reaching. You're also ignoring the fact that the Patriots were going for Carey. Bluff or no, that was the information that Wannspiel had at their disposal, and while it may have influenced the decision they made, they still picked the guy on their board one spot away from where they would have originally selected him.

Come on...defending Wanny on a bluff?
 
Levi Jones was a reach. Ted Ginn was not a reach. Vernon Carey was not a reach.

You still haven't addressed the issue that the trade up of one spot to get Carey was a decision predicated by the front office believing that the Pats were going to trade up to get them. That's the information they had to work with, and that's what they made their decision on. One spot does not constitute a reach. That's why Levi Jones is a reach, and Ted Ginn and Vernon Carey are not.

Ginn not a reach? :lol:
 
Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.


Being in the know as much as you are supposed to be, I know you remember that report was false and Minny just bluffed us out of a pick. There was no attempt to move up by NE. In fact NE basically ignored oline in that draft so if they wanted a lineman so bad, wouldn't they have drafted one. Thier first 4 picks were defense and there were some solid oline prospects they could have drafted. I think people that think that NE was so set on Carey just base that on Minnesota's bluff because its fairly strange of a team that needs oline help to totally bypass it in draft just because one player goes off the board. They could have drafted Max Starks, Travelle Wharton Sean locklear, Jacob Bell or Rex Hadnot. There is not one shred of evidence that NE was interested in Carey, not that we could produce evidence on anything on this board but I do find it strange that a team would look OL in the first and ignore thereafter.
 
Ginn was to be selected with the very next pick by Houston. The Patriots tried to trade above us to get Carey. That's not a reach in my book.

I wish Houston was as smart as Wanny....and I would have taken Wilford if they did take Carey.
 
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