Merged X12: Ongoing Henne vs. Sanchez Debate...

[GothicPhin]

You know I think they both have ability for sure. From what I saw last year it seemed that Henne was able to overcome making mistakes better last year. Sometimes it seemed when sanchez started to have a bad game it went from bad to worse very quickly. With that said he was a rookie and did not really have any solid veteren mentor on the team. At this point in time both of their futures look bright but I would say I think Henne has the advantage. Of course I am a little biased.

This is an excellent point that can't be overlooked. I cannot remember the game, in which Henne really screwed up. He threw a really bad pick late in the game, but overcame that with composure to lead the team to a win. That shows mental toughness and fortitude. In my opinion, that's stepping up. Conversely, Sanchez, wilted after making mistakes, and later had to be coddled and protected to limit his mistakes.

 

[zackmandude63]

What are thier head-to-head records again? Thanks!

 

[jfaulknercahill]

sanchez played 1 year in college, and henne had a bunch. why are we even arguing this. cant compare them yet.

 

[nyjunc]

I didn't come up with this it was Phrozen Phish from Phinsider.com did, but this is probably the best arguement for Henne that i have seen in this debate.

Who cares about 300 yd games? b./c Henne was ineffective early in games and had to throw a million times that makes him better?

If Sanchez had as many attempts as henne he would have thrown for 150 more yards.

Again, who cares about # of games w/ 20 completions? Henne's last 2 20 comp games? both losses in the 2 biggest games of the year for Miami.

# of TD passes in the 4th qtr of a win? So it's Sanchez's fault that our D blew a lead against Miami in Miami and that we gave up 3 non-opffensive Tds to Miami at home? OR that we ran for a TD in the 4th qtr? This is so silly.

Henne is 7-6 and Sanchez 10-8, 10-8 looks a hell of alot better when you consider he's 2-1 in the playoffs w/ both wins being road wins.

In Miami's 3 most impoprtant games- Henne 0-3
In NYJ's 3 most important games- Sanchez 2-1


Sanchez was a ROOKIE, it's not good for rookies to throw 30-40+ times a game. Henne had a year to learna nd came in w/ NO pressure w/ the team 0-3 already. Once he faced pressure in dec he played his worst football while Sanchez played his best in our biggest games.

- This is the bias stuff that gets me when I read a response from you. Henne stepped in with 'zero pressure'?? Really? Would this be your 'professional' opinion on that or are you just pulling it out of thin air?

- "BUT Sanchez stepped up when we needed him most and henne stepped back when you needed him most."


So Sanchez "stepped up" and had games like;


24-14win 12com 15att 80% 182yrds 1TD 0INT 139.4 Rating - Had a great game but looking at the attempts wasn't asked to do much.

17-14win 12com 23att 52.2% 100yrds 1TD 1INT 60.1 Rating - Is this another game you would describe as he "stepped up"?

17-30Lost 17com 30att 56.7% 257yrds 2TD 1INT 93.3 Rating - I don't want to go back and see where he got most of his yards from, if it was after the Jets were forced to pass or not, because I didn't watch the game.

The point I am trying to make here is your defense and running game WERE the reasons the Jets won against the Bangels and the Chargers(although if there were ever a team as notorious as the Braves in baseball come post season it is the Chargers) and not Sanchez "stepping up".

While Sanchez finished his playoffs with the best rookie stats I fail to see where he "stepped up" according to these stats that he finished with.

It wouldn't bother me so much because I liked how Sanchez played in the playoffs but when you come on here saying Sanchez stepped up and immediately follow that up with Henne stepped back. It's that bias sentence. It's a TEAM GAME. You honestly think if the Jets made Sanchez carry the team that you would have won those two playoff games? Hell, it was BECAUSE of Sanchez that you almost didn't make the playoffs.

The team was 0-3 and the season was just about done. he came in as a backup aftre the starter got hurt w/ the team at 0-3, he didn't face any real pressure to win until Decemer when they controlled their own desitny to get into the playoffs- how did that work out?


You are talking about ME being biased and throwing out sill stats?

Go watch those 3 playoff games and then tell me what you think. He was 12-15 but if not for 2 big drops would have been 14-15 w/ another TD and about 60+ more yds.

In SD his #s weren't good but he made 2-3 HUGE plays that helped us win the game. W/o those plays we don't win.

So you can criticize him in a win b/c he didn't have enough yards but when he has yards in a loss you have to check when he got those yards? :lol2:

Shonn Greene and our D were the top reasons we made the run we did but Mark Sanchez was a major contributor. I don't think we make it that far w/ the 2008 version of Brett Favre that we had.

You fail to see where he stepped up? he played his best football of the season in the biggest games on the road. You don't have to have 350 yds passing and 3 TDs to have a good game.

The only bias statements are coming from yourself, b/c Henne had better #s as he was forced to throw b/c he was ineffective early in games and led them to big deficits you think he was really good in thoe games. Henne played his worst in those last 3 games, don't pay attention to those meaningless #s. He had chances to win all 3 and lost all 3(I know he left the Pitt game early but they would't have won that one either).

Really?

Lets look at the stats...

Last 5 Games

Henne

13NEW 22-21 29 52 335 55.8 29 2 1 80.2 1 -1 -1.0 0
14@JACW 14-10 21 29 220 72.4 25 0 1 79.7 4 1 0.3 1
15@TENL 27-24 (OT)29 46 349 63.0 57 1 3 66.3 2 11 5.5 0
16HOUL 27-20 35 55 322 63.6 35 1 1 78.0 1 10 10.0 0
17PITL 30-24 16 20 140 80.0 24 1 1 91.7 1 0 0.0 0

Completions Att Comp Pct TD Int QB rating
totals 130 202 64.3 5 7 79.18


Sanchez

12CARW 17-6 13 17 154 76.5 26 0 1 79.0 3 27 9.0 0
13@BUFW 19-13 7 15 104 46.7 45 1 0 92.1 1 8 8.0 0
14@TBW 26-3 Did Not Play or did not accumulate any stats.
15ATLL 10-7 18 32 226 56.3 65 1 3 49.7 3 7 2.3 0
16@INDW 29-15 12 19 106 63.2 16 0 0 78.0 2 0 0.0 0
17CINW 37-0 8 16 63 50.0 14 0 0 60.2 2 2 1.0 0

Totals Completions Att CompPct TD Int QB rating

68 99 68.6 2 4 71.8


So the numbers are pretty similar. How exactly did Sanchez step up? How did Henne step back?

Here is what i do notice though. I notice that Henne was let loose, free to throw it all over the place. Yes he made mistakes but you live and you learn (hopefully) while Sanchez was some what protected. We can both agree (or at least the logical NFL fans) that at the time Sanchez had weapons unlike Henne. So we will see what happens this year.

when you expand the games to make your QB look better that skews the #s.

Miami's 3 biggest games- @Ten, vs. Hou, vs. Pitt:

80-121, 811 yds, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 76.1 rating, 0-3 record against 3 non playoff teams

NYJ's 3 biggest games: playoffs @ Cincy, @ SD, @ Indy

41-68, 539 yds, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, 92.7 rating, 2-1 record

Others have thrown out the numbers, and in the past ive jumped on the fact that our defense gave up 84 combined points during the last 3 games(and we were still within a field goal/touchdown of tieing or winning those games), as well as debating the "no pressure" thing while driving a team in a 3 game hole to playoff contention.

So ill just ask this: instead of the 1st ranked defense the Jets were the 22nd, and you lost Thomas Jones and Alan Faneca halfway through the season as well, during that time, as Nick Mangold playing injured or out of games: does Mark Sanchez win 5 games last year?

Keep those factors in mind, for a second question ill ask this: lets say the jets don't trade for Edwards, and Cotchery is a rookie: does Mark Sanchez win 2 games?

Trying to figure out how to ask about having to start 2 rookie corners seemed like to much of a hassle, but you get the jist.
Despite all those factors mentioned above(and many more), Henne was 7-6 as a starter, while Sanchez was 8-7. Very compairable, but you have to admit that Henne and the phins would have stood a damn good chance against the Colts and Bengals second/third stringers.

We lost leon washington(the only pass receiving back we had) and kris Jenkins for most of the year.

Thomas Jones was hurt and terrible the last month including the playoffs and last I checked w/ Jones effective and w/o leon he led us to the AFC Championship Game.

 

[jetsattack]

Just wait till they miss Jones and Washington and Faneca. We are loaded for the future and they got older.

i really need you to explain to me how we got older at runningback and left guard. and fwiw.....greene was superior bvack than jones was last year.....and he's taking over for him. faneca was the worst strating lineman we had. his pass blocking was terrible and his run blocking was adequate at best. washington was gone most of the season and he now has to try to play with a rod in his leg. while i would have loved to have a healthy leon washington back......he may not ever be back to what he once was. i think you guys are going to be surprised by how good our running game will be. barring injuries of course. also where else exactly are we really old? the d-line is the one unit where we appear to be getting slightly old. but we have some young guys on the depth chart who ryan is pretty high on. and since ryan is the best defensive coach in the league i trust him to know what he needs. thefact that he didn't address it at all is not just an oversight on his part. he knows what he has......jenkins, who is maybe the most dominant NT in the game, went down and our defense was still number 1. and that was with revis and some scrubs at cb and a p*ssy at safety named rhodes. i can't wait to see the comments on this board when the jets go out and start playing some great football.

 

[jetsattack]

What are thier head-to-head records again? Thanks!

this is like the post i read on here somewhere where one you guys said...."i don't care if th ejets go 14-2....a slong as we are the ones who hand them the 2 losses". the jets/dolphins games may be like the superbowl to you guys but in jets land, while we'd always like to beat the fins, we'll take 14-2 with 2 losses to the fins every single year. somehow you guys feel like you had a better season than us because you best us twice last year. i'll take last years results over your results every year as well. matter fo fact i'll also take 2009 jets season over the 2008 fins seaosn as well. i'd rather go 9-7 backing into the play-offs and then making the championship game than go 11-5 only to get completely embarrassed as you go one and done in the play-offs. we proved we did belong even at 9-7. you proved you didn't.

 

[Joneildu]

Who cares about 300 yd games? b./c Henne was ineffective early in games and had to throw a million times that makes him better?

If Sanchez had as many attempts as henne he would have thrown for 150 more yards.

Again, who cares about # of games w/ 20 completions? Henne's last 2 20 comp games? both losses in the 2 biggest games of the year for Miami.

# of TD passes in the 4th qtr of a win? So it's Sanchez's fault that our D blew a lead against Miami in Miami and that we gave up 3 non-opffensive Tds to Miami at home? OR that we ran for a TD in the 4th qtr? This is so silly.

Henne is 7-6 and Sanchez 10-8, 10-8 looks a hell of alot better when you consider he's 2-1 in the playoffs w/ both wins being road wins.

In Miami's 3 most impoprtant games- Henne 0-3
In NYJ's 3 most important games- Sanchez 2-1


Sanchez was a ROOKIE, it's not good for rookies to throw 30-40+ times a game. Henne had a year to learna nd came in w/ NO pressure w/ the team 0-3 already. Once he faced pressure in dec he played his worst football while Sanchez played his best in our biggest games.



The team was 0-3 and the season was just about done. he came in as a backup aftre the starter got hurt w/ the team at 0-3, he didn't face any real pressure to win until Decemer when they controlled their own desitny to get into the playoffs- how did that work out?


You are talking about ME being biased and throwing out sill stats?

Go watch those 3 playoff games and then tell me what you think. He was 12-15 but if not for 2 big drops would have been 14-15 w/ another TD and about 60+ more yds.

In SD his #s weren't good but he made 2-3 HUGE plays that helped us win the game. W/o those plays we don't win.

So you can criticize him in a win b/c he didn't have enough yards but when he has yards in a loss you have to check when he got those yards? :lol2:

Shonn Greene and our D were the top reasons we made the run we did but Mark Sanchez was a major contributor. I don't think we make it that far w/ the 2008 version of Brett Favre that we had.

You fail to see where he stepped up? he played his best football of the season in the biggest games on the road. You don't have to have 350 yds passing and 3 TDs to have a good game.

The only bias statements are coming from yourself, b/c Henne had better #s as he was forced to throw b/c he was ineffective early in games and led them to big deficits you think he was really good in thoe games. Henne played his worst in those last 3 games, don't pay attention to those meaningless #s. He had chances to win all 3 and lost all 3(I know he left the Pitt game early but they would't have won that one either).



when you expand the games to make your QB look better that skews the #s.

Miami's 3 biggest games- @Ten, vs. Hou, vs. Pitt:

80-121, 811 yds, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 76.1 rating, 0-3 record against 3 non playoff teams

NYJ's 3 biggest games: playoffs @ Cincy, @ SD, @ Indy

41-68, 539 yds, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, 92.7 rating, 2-1 record



We lost leon washington(the only pass receiving back we had) and kris Jenkins for most of the year.

Thomas Jones was hurt and terrible the last month including the playoffs and last I checked w/ Jones effective and w/o leon he led us to the AFC Championship Game.

The only one of the those 3 losses in the last 3 games that can be pinned on Henne was the Tennessee loss. Henne's play was amazing in the loss to Houston, they rallied to score 20 points strait in the 2nd half after the defense looked spent and gave up 27 first half points . Thigpin lost (and rallied) the Dolphins in the last game against Pitt, as Henne went out with an injury. At Tennessee, he blew it. I was in the stands at that game. Now, during that very same game, Henne pulled them back from an 18 point deficit and blew it in OT. Vince Young had the best game of his career and Henne threw three picks, including a critical INT in OT. So, in the only loss than can be pinned on Henne, he brought the team back from an 18 point hole. To say that Henne didn't play well in his biggest games is a damn myth. Watch more Dolphins games and don't stick to stat-box stalking.

 

[nyjunc]

The only one of the those 3 losses in the last 3 games that can be pinned on Henne was the Tennessee loss. Henne's play was amazing in the loss to Houston. Thigpin lost (and rallied) the Dolphins in the last game against Pitt, as Henne went out with an injury. At Tennessee, he blew it. I was in the stands at that game. Now, during that very same game, Henne pulled them back from an 18 point deficit and blew it in OT. Vince Young had the best game of his career and Henne threw three picks, including a critical INT in OT. So, in the only loss than can be pinned on Henne, he brought the team back from an 18 point hole. To say that Henne didn't play well in his biggest games is a damn myth. Watch more Dolphins games and don't stick to stat-box stalking.

Henne was amazing in the loss against Houston? he led the Miami O to 3 pts through 2 qtrs(and an INT that led to 7 for Hou), 10 through 3 and 20 in the game and he was amazing?

Henne played his worst in the biggest games for Miami. You guys can blame the D, the running game, the coahcing and they may have all had a part in it but Chad henne played his worst football of the year in the biggest games for the Miami Dolphins in 2009.

 

[Joneildu]

Yes, if you lead the team to 20 strait points after being down 27, then yeah, you played damn good. The INT he threw was off of Ricky William's shoulder. INTs look great as an argument when you look at the stats, not so much in the context of the game though.

 

[nyjunc]

Yes, if you lead the team to 20 strait points after being down 27, then yeah, you played damn good. The INT he threw was off of Ricky William's shoulder. INTs look great as an argument when you look at the stats, not so much in the context of the game though.

So the other team had 27 and your QB led your team to 20(one Td was scored w/ henne off the fiels w/ the wildcat) after trailing by 27 and that's amazing?

The INT definitely could have been caught by Ricky but it was a hard throw from not far away. henne needed a little more touch on that throw so he isn't completely balmess but I think Ricky could have caught it.

regardless of that you cannot allow your team to fall behind big every week and in those last 3 games Henne and his O did just that.

 

[Joneildu]

So the other team had 27 and your QB led your team to 20(one Td was scored w/ henne off the fiels w/ the wildcat) after trailing by 27 and that's amazing?

The INT definitely could have been caught by Ricky but it was a hard throw from not far away. henne needed a little more touch on that throw so he isn't completely balmess but I think Ricky could have caught it.

regardless of that you cannot allow your team to fall behind big every week and in those last 3 games Henne and his O did just that.

The TD is one play of a drive. Henne drove the ball that entire drive (79 yards), but because Pat White handed off a 2 yard run for a TD, Henne is irrelevant. Awesome stat dude!

I agree about falling behind 27 points is absurd. That's why they brought in Nolan.

 

[Mcganiel]

So the other team had 27 and your QB led your team to 20(one Td was scored w/ henne off the fiels w/ the wildcat) after trailing by 27 and that's amazing?The INT definitely could have been caught by Ricky but it was a hard throw from not far away. henne needed a little more

touch on that throw so he isn't completely balmess but I think Ricky could have caught it.

regardless of that you cannot allow your team to fall behind big every week and in those last 3 games Henne and his O did just that.

Cmon man do you really believe the crap you are posting or are you just trying to stir the pot. Henne had a very good game.

Plus, Henne had three 300 yard games while Sanchez had zero. From the stats that I have read Sanchez is underdog by far, all the weapons he had around him and he had a qb rating of 62 for the season, man that is sad.

 

[DuderinoN703]

In Miami's 3 most impoprtant games- Henne 0-3
In NYJ's 3 most important games- Sanchez 2-1

I know there's never any real point in arguing numbers with you b/c I know fully how you feel about the Jets organization as a whole. But you mention the last 3 games (the 'most important' games) for Henne and Sanchez.

The numbers will show that:

Henne was 80 for 121 811 yds 3 TDs 5 INTs

Sanchez was 41 for 68 539 yds 4 TD 2 INTs

The Dolphins defense had allowed 84 points in those three games, the Jets defense just 58 (15 pts more when Manning stays in game).

I've always said that Sanchez, being a rookie, looks as if he'll be a good QB (same with Henne). I don't care who is better right now b/c IMO you can't have an answer to that question right now. The Jets and Dolphins defenses of last year were different thus giving Sanchez more room to make mistakes. I'd bet a good chunk of money that if Henne was on the Jets in place of Sanchez, the results would have been the same if not better.

 

[Vaark]

Bottom line: If Henne had had the jest D, and a healthy OL, they'd have legitimately made the POs instead of backing in. Unlike Sanchez, Henne was asked to carry the team with no #1 WR, only a broken down aging RB and an injury riddled swiss-cheese OL, not to mention being saddled by Henning's play-calling and the White mindfart plays. It's homeristic to ignore these realities and argue otherwise.

 

[nyjunc]

The TD is one play of a drive. Henne drove the ball that entire drive (79 yards), but because Pat White handed off a 2 yard run for a TD, Henne is irrelevant. Awesome stat dude!

I agree about falling behind 27 points is absurd. That's why they brought in Nolan.

The problem is falling behind 27 is not just about the defense, the O plays a big role in that as well. if the O is putting up points you aren't falling behind by 27.

Cmon man do you really believe the crap you are posting or are you just trying to stir the pot. Henne had a very good game.

Plus, Henne had three 300 yard games while Sanchez had zero. From the stats that I have read Sanchez is underdog by far, all the weapons he had around him and he had a qb rating of 62 for the season, man that is sad.

Henne had a very good game in a agme they fell behind 27-0 and lost 27-20 but Sanchez wasn't good when we WON 24-24 at Cincy in the playoffs?

Falling behind 27 pts is on the O as well, henne did a nice job leading them back but overall the game is a failure b/c they couldn't score points early and keep it a game.

I know there's never any real point in arguing numbers with you b/c I know fully how you feel about the Jets organization as a whole. But you mention the last 3 games (the 'most important' games) for Henne and Sanchez.

The numbers will show that:

Henne was 80 for 121 811 yds 3 TDs 5 INTs

Sanchez was 41 for 68 539 yds 4 TD 2 INTs

The Dolphins defense had allowed 84 points in those three games, the Jets defense just 58 (15 pts more when Manning stays in game).

I've always said that Sanchez, being a rookie, looks as if he'll be a good QB (same with Henne). I don't care who is better right now b/c IMO you can't have an answer to that question right now. The Jets and Dolphins defenses of last year were different thus giving Sanchez more room to make mistakes. I'd bet a good chunk of money that if Henne was on the Jets in place of Sanchez, the results would have been the same if not better.

part of the reason your D was ineffective and ours was not was that our QB wasn't turning it over and wasn't setting up your opponent in good FP.


I think both have the chance to be really good, I like what I saw out of both of them. This debate may go on forever, who knows? I'm not saying Sanchez is better right now, i think that is TBD. All I am saying is Sanchez played his best in our biggest games and Henne played his worst.