Ndamukong & Cameron

CRIOS

Formerly A&O
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Jun 20, 2003
Messages
5,348
Reaction score
693
Age
53
Location
Miami
What kind of numbers will Suh and Wake put up in 2017-18? Whom do you feel will have the better year? Curious.
 

normaldude

Starter
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
2,457
Reaction score
129
If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Suh, simply because of Wake's age (35).
 

Eesti

Rookie
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
4,870
Reaction score
2,240
Location
Saint Petersburg, FL
Define better. Sacks? Big plays? FF, FR TFL?

Depends on how Jordan Phillips plays or if one of the rookies can make an impact. Suh has too often been washed out because of spotty play at #2DT. Still a dominant player but he would be getting 9 or 10 sacks if the other DT spot was better. Get Phillips to take on double teams and this is a much different DL. If that happens it frees up Branch or Harris as well. Suh will play more on run downs as well with Hayes in the mix.
 

JakeemThe Dream

Second String
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
1,449
Reaction score
672
Define better. Sacks? Big plays? FF, FR TFL?

Depends on how Jordan Phillips plays or if one of the rookies can make an impact. Suh has too often been washed out because of spotty play at #2DT. Still a dominant player but he would be getting 9 or 10 sacks if the other DT spot was better. Get Phillips to take on double teams and this is a much different DL. If that happens it frees up Branch or Harris as well. Suh will play more on run downs as well with Hayes in the mix.
Well said.

People that believe Suh has regressed even a little bit are sorely mistaken.

He has to go against double teams and sometimes triple teams.

Phillips has to help otherwise he's done with the Fins.

I really am in awe that Phillips can't beat a one on one match up while Suh does all the dirty work Phillips was intended to do.

It seems like every time Suh gets single teamed his busts threw the line and makes a big play.

I really think our Lbing corp will help Suh and clean up the mess Phillips makes by not holding his ground (didn't think that was possible when you're as big as an elephant)

Suh should be getting the opportunity to showcase his nasty pass rushing skills.

Suh had a few sacks taken away the last few years due to dumb penalties.

Remember the Tyrod would be sack? He had him in his hands but let go because his reputation as a dirty player had to be going through his mind.

If he would have tossed him to the ground, he would have gotten penalized. (Such BS)
 

Sons Of Shula

not a dull boy
Hammered
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
19,511
Reaction score
3,401
Location
Room #237
Well said.

People that believe Suh has regressed even a little bit are sorely mistaken.

He has to go against double teams and sometimes triple teams.

Phillips has to help otherwise he's done with the Fins.

I really am in awe that Phillips can't beat a one on one match up while Suh does all the dirty work Phillips was intended to do.

It seems like every time Suh gets single teamed his busts threw the line and makes a big play.

I really think our Lbing corp will help Suh and clean up the mess Phillips makes by not holding his ground (didn't think that was possible when you're as big as an elephant)

Suh should be getting the opportunity to showcase his nasty pass rushing skills.
This is not all really true.

Phillips sees double teams often, especially in the run game vs plays like Inside Zone, Duo, etc. but Suh gets caught up by them as well. Not at the rate as the other DT's b/c Suh is a great player, but another prominent DT next to Suh still wouldn't detract from deuce blocks on both our tackles vs inside runs. Our defense isn't designed for a single DL to occupy multiple blockers or 2 gap play. They are all responsible to penetrate a single gap and reestablish a new LOS once run is sniffed out (that's where Phillips needs work) The LBs and safeties do need to do a better job of being being force, fill, and plug players vs inside runs b/c it takes all eleven defenders to successfully stop the run. Jones' return and a new body at MLB will help shore up some of those issues.

Where the LBs and secondary can help vs outside runs, along with the DE's sealing the edge, is effectively turning the ball back inside to Suh, which by design is how this defense is supposed to work on paper in redirecting the ballcarrier to the 3 tech (Suh).

Concerning the pass rush situations we'll almost always see a protection slide or at least a partial slide towards Suh and Wake b/c they are the most effective rushers and it can be done with confidence by the opposition b/c there is little to no threat of the blitz and little to no confusion or disguise for them to worry about presnap. These are also situations where Phillips or another mammoth at NT will be subbed by a DE so you can't really pin pass rushing issues on Phillips considering in ideal 3rd and longs he wont be on the field anyways.

Regardless, of what was said here, Phillips does need to be a more consistent presence because in doing so he will help the back 7 (not necessarily Suh) to be more effective vs the run.
 

JakeemThe Dream

Second String
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
1,449
Reaction score
672
This is not all really true.

Phillips sees double teams often, especially in the run game vs plays like Inside Zone, Duo, etc. but Suh gets caught up by them as well. Not at the rate as the other DT's b/c Suh is a great player, but another prominent DT next to Suh still wouldn't detract from deuce blocks on both our tackles vs inside runs. Our defense isn't designed for a single DL to occupy multiple blockers or 2 gap play. They are all responsible to penetrate a single gap and reestablish a new LOS once run is sniffed out (that's where Phillips needs work) The LBs and safeties do need to do a better job of being being force, fill, and plug players vs inside runs b/c it takes all eleven defenders to successfully stop the run. Jones' return and a new body at MLB will help shore up some of those issues.

Where the LBs and secondary can help vs outside runs, along with the DE's sealing the edge, is effectively turning the ball back inside to Suh, which by design is how this defense is supposed to work on paper in redirecting the ballcarrier to the 3 tech (Suh).

Concerning the pass rush situations we'll almost always see a protection slide or at least a partial slide towards Suh and Wake b/c they are the most effective rushers and it can be done with confidence by the opposition b/c there is little to no threat of the blitz and little to no confusion or disguise for them to worry about presnap. These are also situations where Phillips or another mammoth at NT will be subbed by a DE so you can't really pin pass rushing issues on Phillips considering in ideal 3rd and longs he wont be on the field anyways.

Regardless, of what was said here, Phillips does need to be a more consistent presence because in doing so he will help the back 7 (not necessarily Suh) to be more effective vs the run.
So basically what you're saying is Suh is in the wrong scheme? You seem to hate everything and anything to do with our scheme..lol What would be your ideal scheme for us? Apparently it's not working lol
 

Digital

Starter
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
9,631
Reaction score
9,331
Tough question. For Wake I'd say that health is probably the biggest determinant. At his age, health is always an issue. If he stays healthy, I can see 12 sacks and a bunch of pressures.

For Suh it's also tough, because he plays a position that doesn't usually get a lot of stats. Maybe 3 sacks and 5 tackles for loss?

I think these two guys are the stalwarts along with Reshad Jones if he's healthy. The path of least resistance for offenses lies away from those guys. They will add pass protection to the offense's right side to handle Wake/Suh, so it'll be up to the right side ends Harris and Branch to either feast on that blind side singled protection, or be so disruptive that they shift the pass protection away from Suh and Wake's side (unlikely). Our defense gets a lot better if we get consistent pressure from the right side of our defense. If Harris is as good as advertised, our defense makes a huge jump up the charts because we'll be able to get the defense off the field with 3rd down stops. That makes everybody look good, although it doesn't pump up the stats for Wake and Suh.

If the secondary makes the surge forward I'm expecting this year, that will set up a lot more coverage sacks. Our safety position was decimated last year ... we're in a better position this year personnel-wise at S and CB. That should help our pass rushers get sacks and pressures.

Our obvious and substantial commitment to improving our run defense, primarily through our LB's, should also help the defense improve statistically, and hopefully will put opposing offenses in 3rd and long more often, so that should help the sack, pressure and tackle for loss numbers.

Lots of moving parts ... but that's how I see it.
 

Sons Of Shula

not a dull boy
Hammered
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
19,511
Reaction score
3,401
Location
Room #237
So basically what you're saying is Suh is in the wrong scheme? You seem to hate everything and anything to do with our scheme..lol What would be your ideal scheme for us? Apparently it's not working lol
No, that's not what I was saying. Suh could play in any scheme and he's fine in a 4 man front like ours, but he'll never be able to play as freely as you were describing b/c he demands the attention.

And yes, I hate our scheme. I loathe the foul gym shorts (Jim Schwartz) style defense b/c it's essentially based off a single gameplan from the 90's.

I prefer the 3-4, especially in today's game, b/c it gets you more high-level athletes on the field by putting a premium on the LB position.
 
Last edited:

JakeemThe Dream

Second String
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
1,449
Reaction score
672
No, that's not what I was saying. Suh could play in any scheme and he's fine in a 4 man front like ours, but he'll never be able to play as freely as you were describing b/c he demands the attention.

And yes, I hate our scheme. I loathe the foul gym shorts (Jim Schwartz) style defense b/c it's essentially based off a single gameplan from the 90's.

I prefer the 3-4, especially in today's game, b/c it gets you more athletes on the field by putting a premium on the LB position.
Ya I've always liked the 3-4 scheme as well. Do you believe Suh gets overlooked by the media and others due to our scheme and does it take away from his stats in your opinion?

Thanks for the honest debate and the time you take writing some of your analysis.

When it's all said and done, we ALL bleed Aqua and Orange!!
 

SF Dolphin Fan

Seasoned Veteran
Finheaven VIP
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
10,462
Reaction score
3,999
A little off topic, but where do you all think Suh and Wake would rank in the top 100 if they played for New England?

Getting that constant media hype, obnoxious NFL Network coverage would have to move them up pretty significantly, I would think.
 
Last edited:

Sons Of Shula

not a dull boy
Hammered
Finheaven VIP
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
19,511
Reaction score
3,401
Location
Room #237
Ya I've always liked the 3-4 scheme as well. Do you believe Suh gets overlooked by the media and others due to our scheme and does it take away from his stats in your opinion?

Thanks for the honest debate and the time you take writing some of your analysis.

When it's all said and done, we ALL bleed Aqua and Orange!!
Don't mean to disrespect or brush off the question but I could care less what the media has to say or what his statistics are.

The reason LB's Zach Thomas and Ray Lewis were so successful (beyond personal work ethic, tape study, etc.) was because of the unselfish play in front of them on the DL (Tim Bowens for Miami, Kelly Gregg for Baltimore are just a few examples) that would continue to occupy blocks to free them up to make the tackle.

Not only is that not our philosophy on our defense, but I have a sense that Suh also wants to be more involved in the playmaking aspect than simply doing grunt work of which he is fully capable of. I got that notion from his freelancing in Coyle's scheme where he'd walk off blocks to try and make the tackle instead of sticking to his assignment in holding his ground and trusting the rest of the defense to do theirs.

I get that he's a phenomenal talent, a very athletic DT, and an ideal fit to play in a penetrating front like we currently use now. But on the same note there are not many players in the NFL that could do what he is capable of strength wise in controlling two lineman on the flow to the ball carrier and creating a free defender in the front 7.
 

JakeemThe Dream

Second String
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
1,449
Reaction score
672
Don't mean to disrespect or brush off the question but I could care less what the media has to say or what his statistics are.

The reason LB's Zach Thomas and Ray Lewis were so successful (beyond personal work ethic, tape study, etc.) was because of the unselfish play in front of them on the DL (Tim Bowens for Miami, Kelly Gregg for Baltimore are just a few examples) that would continue to occupy blocks to free them up to make the tackle.

Not only is that not our philosophy on our defense, but I have a sense that Suh also wants to be more involved in the playmaking aspect than simply doing grunt work of which he is fully capable of. I got that notion from his freelancing in Coyle's scheme where he'd walk off blocks to try and make the tackle instead of sticking to his assignment in holding his ground and trusting the rest of the defense to do theirs.

I get that he's a phenomenal talent, a very athletic DT, and an ideal fit to play in a penetrating front like we currently use now. But on the same note there are not many players in the NFL that could do what he is capable of strength wise in controlling two lineman on the flow to the ball carrier and creating a free defender in the front 7.
Oh no brother. You're not being disrespectful at all.

Like I said, we're all here for the same reasons and gaining knowledge is actually a beautiful part of life as well as hearing others well thought out opinions.

Thanks brother!!!
 
Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Top Bottom