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Over-investment Argument

ckparrothead

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Thanks to Phinphanphrommi for this counter-argument.

I've heard it time and again that we should not draft a QB because that would mean essentially spending the #2 pick, and our 2nd round pick on the QB position.

What we have to admit is that there were mistakes made by the previous coaching staff. We have to pretty much start at zero.

Because, when we traded Ogunleye for Booker and a 3rd, we essentially traded a 1st for Booker, and then used a 3rd to trade for Lamar Gordon.

Yet, the three guys we're openly considering are a QB, WR, and a RB.

Draft Braylon Edwards and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a later first round pick (actually the #4 pick, since we could have just insisted on the Bears' first rounder), on Marty Booker and Braylon Edwards...two guys who like it or not, will end up competing for one starting role.

Draft Ronnie Brown and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a high 3rd round pick in the RB position, a position where these two guys will compete for one starting position.

Draft a QB, and yes, it would be like investing the #2 pick and the high 2nd round pick in the QB position, two guys who will compete for one starting role.

No matter what, the previous regime has put us in a position where we're forced to overinvest on a position, or make a dreaded "reach"

There's a certain amount of waste that we're just going to have to accept from the previous regime. Spielman likely won't be here much longer than the draft anyway. If you look at any of the three choices, between Brown, Edwards, and one of the QBs, and you look at it from the perspective of prior to last year, all three are "bad" investments...because they are overinvestments. We have to start with a clean slate.

Thank you phinphanfrommi.
 

inFINSible

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There is a need for three wide receivers though.
And there is a need for depth at RB, which is what Gordon would be.
QB does seem, to me, to be a bit more of a luxury pick.
 

BlueFin

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ckparrothead said:
Thanks to Phinphanphrommi for this counter-argument.

I've heard it time and again that we should not draft a QB because that would mean essentially spending the #2 pick, and our 2nd round pick on the QB position.

What we have to admit is that there were mistakes made by the previous coaching staff. We have to pretty much start at zero.

Because, when we traded Ogunleye for Booker and a 3rd, we essentially traded a 1st for Booker, and then used a 3rd to trade for Lamar Gordon.

Yet, the three guys we're openly considering are a QB, WR, and a RB.

Draft Braylon Edwards and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a later first round pick (actually the #4 pick, since we could have just insisted on the Bears' first rounder), on Marty Booker and Braylon Edwards...two guys who like it or not, will end up competing for one starting role.

Draft Ronnie Brown and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a high 3rd round pick in the RB position, a position where these two guys will compete for one starting position.

Draft a QB, and yes, it would be like investing the #2 pick and the high 2nd round pick in the QB position, two guys who will compete for one starting role.

No matter what, the previous regime has put us in a position where we're forced to overinvest on a position, or make a dreaded "reach"

There's a certain amount of waste that we're just going to have to accept from the previous regime. Spielman likely won't be here much longer than the draft anyway. If you look at any of the three choices, between Brown, Edwards, and one of the QBs, and you look at it from the perspective of prior to last year, all three are "bad" investments...because they are overinvestments. We have to start with a clean slate.

Thank you phinphanfrommi.

Excellent points.........well done.

I really don't think Nick Saban will make his decisions based on something the two stooges did over the last five years.

He will draft exactly who he said he would.......the player that will bring the most "long term" value to this organization, no matter who was traded for in the past.
 

sports24/7

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I agree completely. We cannot look at this as "well we used our second on Feeley so essentially taking a QB in the first would be like taking one in the first and second". Everyone can see that many of the moves made last year were bad ones, but they were made under a different regime than we have now. So taking a QB in the first is like taking a QB in the first and just not having a pick in the second.
 

ckparrothead

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There is a need for three wide receivers though.
And there is a need for depth at RB, which is what Gordon would be.
QB does seem, to me, to be a bit more of a luxury pick.

And there ISN'T a need for a capable backup quarterback? You might be having a hard time with your memory (LUCAS, ehem) otherwise you might remember that backup QBs can be very important to a team's success.
 

bfishusi

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ckparrothead said:
Thanks to Phinphanphrommi for this counter-argument.

I've heard it time and again that we should not draft a QB because that would mean essentially spending the #2 pick, and our 2nd round pick on the QB position.

What we have to admit is that there were mistakes made by the previous coaching staff. We have to pretty much start at zero.

Because, when we traded Ogunleye for Booker and a 3rd, we essentially traded a 1st for Booker, and then used a 3rd to trade for Lamar Gordon.

Yet, the three guys we're openly considering are a QB, WR, and a RB.

Draft Braylon Edwards and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a later first round pick (actually the #4 pick, since we could have just insisted on the Bears' first rounder), on Marty Booker and Braylon Edwards...two guys who like it or not, will end up competing for one starting role.

Draft Ronnie Brown and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a high 3rd round pick in the RB position, a position where these two guys will compete for one starting position.

Draft a QB, and yes, it would be like investing the #2 pick and the high 2nd round pick in the QB position, two guys who will compete for one starting role.

No matter what, the previous regime has put us in a position where we're forced to overinvest on a position, or make a dreaded "reach"

There's a certain amount of waste that we're just going to have to accept from the previous regime. Spielman likely won't be here much longer than the draft anyway. If you look at any of the three choices, between Brown, Edwards, and one of the QBs, and you look at it from the perspective of prior to last year, all three are "bad" investments...because they are overinvestments. We have to start with a clean slate.

Thank you phinphanfrommi.


I see your points, but would say that we really can't afford to look at the past. We have to look at the present. We need to look at the current talent on the team and the potential on the team. We must also look at our current team needs. We should then take this report into the draft and see what players present themselves at the number two. The value of the players should be weighed. When an available player matches up with what is currently best for the team, then we should make that selection whether it be QB, RB, or WR. I don't buy the fact that we should or should'nt draft a position because of what we have invested in the position as of now.
 

DPlus47

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BlueFin said:
Excellent points.........well done.

I really don't think Nick Saban will make his decisions based on something the two stooges did over the last five years.

He will draft exactly who he said he would.......the player that will bring the most "long term" value to this organization, no matter who was traded for in the past.

i agree. i think he's going to pick the person he believes is going to be the best player, and not a position he needs to fill.

the "overinvestment" argument would be a great argument if d'brickashaw ferguson or marcus mcneil would have come out this year. as it stands, you're right, ck, the team has to overinvest. that screams BPA, BPA, BPA!
 

Dol-Fan Dupree

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you can play two recievers. you can play two runningbacks. you cannot play two quarterbacks. Totally different.
 

Scott Andrew

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I don't think Ronnie Brown will "compete" with Lamar Gordan for the starting position, it will be Lamar in a Back-up role
 

CrunchTime

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If you make a bad investment you dont feed more good money after the bad in an effort to justify ones investment.The way I see it is that you do Hari-Kiri get what you can and go on the next investment and hope that your good investments exceed your bad ones.

I can relate that to my business experiences when sometimes you have to admit you made a bad investment and you have to cut your losses and move on to the next investment.I know its very hard to admit failure but its necessary sometimes.
 

bfishusi

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CrunchTime said:
If you make a bad investment you dont feed more good money after the bad in an effort to justify ones investment.The way I see it is that you do Hari-Kiri get what you can and go on the next investment and hope that your good investments exceed your bad ones.

I can relate that to my business experiences when sometimes you have to admit you made a bad investment and you have to cut your losses and move on to the next investment.I know its very hard to admit failure but its necessary sometimes.


Very true. In terms of the QB situation it all comes down to does Saban think that the Feeley trade was a total loss. If he really believes that, then the smart thing to do would be to draft QB since we hopefully won't be this high in the draft again. If he still thinks that it is a possible success then we need to try to get the proper weapons around him to judge him fairly. I happen to feel that the trade was not a bust yet, and would like to wait one more year to see if it was. Basically, I think Feeley will prove himself next year. The question is, what does Saban think.
 

inFINSible

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ckparrothead said:
And there ISN'T a need for a capable backup quarterback? You might be having a hard time with your memory (LUCAS, ehem) otherwise you might remember that backup QBs can be very important to a team's success.
I think Frerotte is a capable back-up. :)

Seriously, I understand the theory, I'll show you the thread that 3P and I first discussed it 4 months ago. I don't disagree that Saban may indeed throw all past moves out the window.

But, I still think, our need for a RB and the BPA, are going to be one and the same..

I don't think that a QB is either BPA or a great need.

jmo, ck, no offense.
 

DoLpHiNz34

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ckparrothead said:
Thanks to Phinphanphrommi for this counter-argument.

I've heard it time and again that we should not draft a QB because that would mean essentially spending the #2 pick, and our 2nd round pick on the QB position.

What we have to admit is that there were mistakes made by the previous coaching staff. We have to pretty much start at zero.

Because, when we traded Ogunleye for Booker and a 3rd, we essentially traded a 1st for Booker, and then used a 3rd to trade for Lamar Gordon.

Yet, the three guys we're openly considering are a QB, WR, and a RB.

Draft Braylon Edwards and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a later first round pick (actually the #4 pick, since we could have just insisted on the Bears' first rounder), on Marty Booker and Braylon Edwards...two guys who like it or not, will end up competing for one starting role.

Draft Ronnie Brown and we essentially invested the #2 pick, and a high 3rd round pick in the RB position, a position where these two guys will compete for one starting position.

Draft a QB, and yes, it would be like investing the #2 pick and the high 2nd round pick in the QB position, two guys who will compete for one starting role.

No matter what, the previous regime has put us in a position where we're forced to overinvest on a position, or make a dreaded "reach"

There's a certain amount of waste that we're just going to have to accept from the previous regime. Spielman likely won't be here much longer than the draft anyway. If you look at any of the three choices, between Brown, Edwards, and one of the QBs, and you look at it from the perspective of prior to last year, all three are "bad" investments...because they are overinvestments. We have to start with a clean slate.

Thank you phinphanfrommi.

I agree with you completely. That argument sucks. What difference does it make that we traded for a QB last year with a different regime? I want Saban to bring in his people no matter what we did last year. I don't know about you, but I don't feel good or confident about anything that happend here the past couple of years. If there was a QB that I really felt was going to be a monster, I would be all for it. That being said, I don't think we should invest our #2 on either one of these guys (Smith/Rogers). I don't think either one is going to be great, just my opinion. In my mind, I think you should always draft the BPA. Period. When you say Brown would be competing with Gordon for one starting role, you never know what's going to happen. If Gordon or Brown gets hurt, we'd be in a nice spot. If not, we have good healthy comp at the position and can always trade one of them later. Either way, we helped out our team by drafting the best player available with the most worth and not a mediocore guy to fill a need. I personally like Mike Williams to be our pick because I feel he's the best player in the draft. If it were a QB, I'd want him and if it were the second coming of Jason Taylor, I'd think we should draft him. My 2 cents...
 

bfishusi

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inFINSible I don't think that a QB is either BPA or a great need. [/QUOTE said:
Agree 100% with that statement. However, I am starting to think that the best value may be to go with Williams in the first and then draft a RB later on since there is quite a bit of depth at that position (especially if we get a 2nd for Pat). This will give us a quality RB and give Feeley another weapon. If we do get the 2nd, we could then go QB in the third for a future/back-up plan at the position.
 
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