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PFF Signature O-line Stats Customized for games played at position

garbagemouth

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The why does Dallas Thomas suck thread got me curious as to what our offensive line looks like based on PFF rankings but customized to take into account starting position. I also wanted to look at just the weeks played for comparison. I did this because PFF is cumulative stats so having a more similar number of games could potentially makes it more apples to apples for comparison. So I compiled a breakdown of how our offensive line players fared the last time they played the positions they are slotted in for. I understand that this doesn't create a perfect view as it reduces the sample size and other issues but I figured it's better than nothing. All stats are based on PFF signature stats for the weeks listed above that particular player and I only used weeks that PFF states the player started at that position on the offensive line:

2014 (Weeks 1-9)
Branden Albert
Overall (All Tackles): +17.0 Rating (3rd T Overall)
Run Block: +6.7 (4th overall)
Pass Block: +11.8 (4th overall)
Overall Ranking (Just LT): 3rd Overall
Jamil Douglas
No Data Obviously : Complete Unknown

Dallas Thomas at LG (2014 Weeks 8-10)
( All the Games he started at LG )
Overall (All Guards): -6.5 (71st G overall)
Run Block: -1.6 (53rd)
Pass Block: -5.8 (73rd Overall)
Overall Ranking (Just LG): 35th Best LG overall

2013 (Weeks 1-16) - I used 2013 as he played Guard in 2014
Mike Pouncy
Overall (All Centers): +8.2 Rating (14)
Run Block : +1.6 (20th overall)
Pass Block +6.2 (1st overall)
14th best C overall

Billy Turner
No Data : Complete Unknown

Dallas Thomas at RG -2014 (Weeks 2-4)
(All the games he started at RG)
Overall (All Guards): -6.0 (tied for 61st best G)
Run Block (All Guards): -5.8 (66th of 69 Guards)
Pass Block (All Guards): +.3 (Tied for 31st)
Overal Ranking (Just RG): 32nd Best RG overall

2014 (Weeks 1-9)
Ja'Wuan James at Right Tackle
Overall: +1.6 (26th T Overall)
Run Block: 4.5 (6th overall)
Pass Block: -2.6 (47th overall)
9th Best RT overall
26th Best OT overall

2014 - Weeks 11-17
Ja'Wuan James at Left Tackle
Overall: -23 (League Worst: 76th of 76)
Run Blocking: -11.1 (League Worst: 76th of 76)
Pass Blocking: -12.5 (74th of 76)
Overall: Worst Rated LT

*Fun Fact Dallas Thomas was worst T (76 of 76) at Pass blocking during this timeframe

ADDED EVAN MATHIS BONUS

Because he is a free agent and people may be curious I did Evan Mathis for the weeks he was healthy.


Evan Mathis (2014 weeks 1, 8-17)
( All the Games he started at G )
Overall: +25.8 (1st Overall)
Run Block: +17.3 (1st Overall)
Pass Block: +7.5 (5th Overall)
Overall: 1st Rated LG


 
Wonder why SouthBeach keeps defending Dallas Thomas with grades like that. He's the one that uses PFF all the time.
 
Oh believe me I know how useless statistics can be i have my degree in Economics. That said i thought it was interesting how great James ranked at RT and how Terribly he ranked at LT.

I should have clarified that my post wasn't directed at you and it was just a general statement overall.

Agree. I'll be happy to have James back to his original position and hopefully staying relatively healthy on our line.
 
All these stats tell me the following:

1. Keep Pouncey at center
2. Keep James at RT; If Albert is not ready day one, put Fox at LT and keep James at RT.
3. Sign Mathis Period.
4. Get rid of Dallas Thomas and groom Douglas and Turner.

Next off-season, get our LT for the future.
 
All these stats tell me the following:

1. Keep Pouncey at center
2. Keep James at RT; If Albert is not ready day one, put Fox at LT and keep James at RT.
3. Sign Mathis Period.
4. Get rid of Dallas Thomas and groom Douglas and Turner.

Next off-season, get our LT for the future.

It would be great to sign Mathis and give Douglas a "redshirt" year but I don't know how many players are in it for him. We do have Lazor who at least was around him for a year when he was the QB coach for the Eagles. Familiarity is one of the keys to signing free agents behind money (money is always #1 lol). My guess is he will hold out for while and see if someone offers him a bigger contract than the one he had in Philly.

As for the LT...I'm with you on that one. It would also depend on where we finish but I would put LT and MLB as our top choice in next years draft.
 
Wonder why SouthBeach keeps defending Dallas Thomas with grades like that. He's the one that uses PFF all the time.

I did that after watching every game by the OL on tape, and including what PFF saw. The overall grade for Dallas, playing OG, was roughly a -12 or an average of -2 per game.

PFF grades each play between -2 and +2, with a 0 being average. The vast majority of the time a player gets a -.5 for a bad block, and a +.5 for a good one with 60 or so being graded every game. IF Dallas can take 4 of his blocks per game from bad to average, he would be average. That is not a whole lot to expect from a red shirt rookie going into his second year IF THE TEAM KEEPS HIM AT ONE POSITION.

Hoops, who knows more than me on this, did a great job in looking at and grading Dallas on every play for 2 games at OG. I will not put words in his mouth but, it "appeared" to me that his number of pluses vs minuses showed that Dallas is worth a further look, and not as horrible as most think.
 
I'd be interested in Billy Turners grade when he started at RT. Of course that is only worst case scenario if Albert can't go. We move James and turner to RT
 
I'd be interested in Billy Turners grade when he started at RT. Of course that is only worst case scenario if Albert can't go. We move James and turner to RT

I completely forgot about Billy Turner. Below are his stats. I didn't do a ranking but it likely wouldn't be good.

Dallas Thomas for all 333 snaps at RT in 2014.

Overall: -20.2
Run Block: -5.5
Pass Block -14.4
 
I'd be interested in Billy Turners grade when he started at RT. Of course that is only worst case scenario if Albert can't go. We move James and turner to RT

Turner played 17 snaps, 12 in pass with a +0.7 grade, and 5 on the run with a - 0.4 grade.
 
I did that after watching every game by the OL on tape, and including what PFF saw. The overall grade for Dallas, playing OG, was roughly a -12 or an average of -2 per game.

PFF grades each play between -2 and +2, with a 0 being average. The vast majority of the time a player gets a -.5 for a bad block, and a +.5 for a good one with 60 or so being graded every game. IF Dallas can take 4 of his blocks per game from bad to average, he would be average. That is not a whole lot to expect from a red shirt rookie going into his second year IF THE TEAM KEEPS HIM AT ONE POSITION.

Hoops, who knows more than me on this, did a great job in looking at and grading Dallas on every play for 2 games at OG. I will not put words in his mouth but, it "appeared" to me that his number of pluses vs minuses showed that Dallas is worth a further look, and not as horrible as most think.

First, a person can use PAPER to make a player look like an all-pro, or at least like an above average level starter at the position. People did it with Hartline for YEARS until it became self-evident of the player that he was, and vast limitations exposed by being asked to be a complete WR.

Second, if "not horrible" is the standard for a player that you are then supposedly cool with being a starter, that whole mindset is how teams are perennial 8-8 or worse. That same level of thinking was used to justify the train wreck of Jonni Martin, right up until the time he dropped his lunch tray after someone snapped his bra.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same people that defended giving Joni Martin more chances are using similar arguments for Dallas Thomas -- "Well, if you look at this angle, or this position, during this time frame, it wasn't soooo bad..."

Right. Those kinds of players get DESTROYED by top level competition. Miami needs an interior line that can dominate against good DLs. Especially in this division. We're freekin' lucky that RT17 isn't already concussed out of the league.

LD
 
First, a person can use PAPER to make a player look like an all-pro, or at least like an above average level starter at the position. People did it with Hartline for YEARS until it became self-evident of the player that he was, and vast limitations exposed by being asked to be a complete WR.

Second, if "not horrible" is the standard for a player that you are then supposedly cool with being a starter, that whole mindset is how teams are perennial 8-8 or worse. That same level of thinking was used to justify the train wreck of Jonni Martin, right up until the time he dropped his lunch tray after someone snapped his bra.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same people that defended giving Joni Martin more chances are using similar arguments for Dallas Thomas -- "Well, if you look at this angle, or this position, during this time frame, it wasn't soooo bad..."

Right. Those kinds of players get DESTROYED by top level competition. Miami needs an interior line that can dominate against good DLs. Especially in this division. We're freekin' lucky that RT17 isn't already concussed out of the league.

LD



at buffalo week 2

thomas comes in at the 9:19 mark 3rd quarter for shelley smith (who got abused up til that point) and miamis down 16 to 3...make no mistake about it smith was awful in the first half especially...oversetting or getting walked back into the backfield and on skates etc...really poor

+1 combo block pass pro engage at the los with the center keeps his outside arm free after engaging and his head is working back outside to the tackle to see if he needs inside help
+1 gets jarred off the ball but works to maintain contact down the field on a wide run (looking for work)
+1 rb screen play slghtly oversets outside but recovers laterally to engage the dt and impede before release
+1 walk up edge lb blitzer means his responsbility is the de who bull rushes him ball comes out quick but he's in good position had the play taken longer
+1 bull rush with dt dareus mirrors well laterally side to side
+1 dt dareus takes an outside shoulder set shifts laterally firing well off the snap and engages and maintains long enough for the ball to go to the other side on play design
+1 screen to the tight end moves laterally off the ball engages the dt williams and then releases to go find work to the opposite play side
-1 bull rush kyle williams gets up under his pad level and just drives him right back into the qbs pocket...too high off the ball lost the leverage battle
-1 unable to match kyle williams secondary spin move who powers thru him for a arm on the qb as he's releasing the ball...hands to the face early to try and offset williams but it doesnt work..just spun right off
+1 screen gets to the lb on the perimeter but doesnt really drive or bury him (this is where you want more pop especially at right guard but it's not a negative effect on the play gain)
+1 engages and sustains a moving laterally dt trying to cross his face and plug a running lane (ideally he keeps that dt from getting into the lane but it would be pretty harsh of me to negative this one)
+1 stunt dt and de engages the dt pushes him towards his rt help picks up the loop around to the inside de as he should
+1 zone blocking pass pro gets a hand on a man off the ball but no one comes into his zone sits and looks to make sure no one is coming as he should
+1 too high off the ball imo works to the 2nd level to try and get on a lb never materializes (gift +1 here)
+1 takes a pass pro drop set off the snap barely makes contact although in good position to do so and the balls gone
-1 false start on a wide run play where he's itching to get out in front and leaves too early
+1 pass pro able to match lateral quickness easily with a depth dt who tries to cross his face
-1 pass pro defense play design is to slant the dt williams inside and rub the delayed lb blitzer off of him once that hole is created...may be more miller taking the bait than the right guard or may be lack of experience at play and being preyed on
+1 bull rush guard center combo engages and comes off to pick up the lb with the right tackle
-1 leans and lunges and has his hands as a result in poor position for kyle williams lateral move who gains the inside shoulder and clears him and thomas goes to ground even as qb climbs the pocket vs clean williams and eludes the should be sack
+1 mirrors kyle williams laterally ball comes out quick
+1 depth dt slant down inside across his face and he rides him on of the play letting his momentum carry him almost into the throwing lane
+1 zone pass pro engages with one hand off the ball and has his head on a swivel looking for work in his area nothing comes so works back late to his initial engagement
+1 inside outside stunt picks up the de williams
+1 pass pro sets up nothing in his zone looks for work shoulders the edge rusher late to assist his right tackle
+1 pass pro dt loops outside wide pushes him past and releases him to the right tackle
+1 gets jarred off the ball up under his chin by the dt williams but never outright loses on the play...
-1 blown up off the ball by the dt williams who had it been an inside hand off on the read option would have been a 3 yard loss
+1 takes too deep a set in pass pro allowing for the dt to cut off any escape route but the plays blown up because of others not helping the qb in pass pro
+1 punches a dt who goes to ground after off balance (looked more dts doing that thomas doing but it was effective)
-1 bull rush gets walked back into the qbs lap never able to anchor
-1 bull rush gets walked back again right into the backfield unable to ever anchor (collapsing pocket)
+1 dt slants down across his face engages and releases picks up the clean edge rusher olb lawson looping around way inside
+1 pass pro takes his set barely touched looks for work
+1 combo block with the center releases and picks up the looping edge rusher lawson
+1 combo block engages and gives ground but able to keep dt at bay relatively easily
+1 combo block engages and releases
4 more plays no real action in any of them but all would be graded as +1

my game takeaways...heads on a swivel looks for work...seems to understand his assignments...lateral short area abilities look ok at guard feet do also...biggest problem i see is a lack of strength...just plays a very soft right guard...rarely jaws anyone rarely knocks anyones head back...needs more pop in his punch...does fine with guys he can match lateral quickness and feet with has problems with lateral quickness that also possesses power and strength...especially guys who if thier initial rush move is cut off have a redirect secondary...at times plays too high and loses leverage battles as a result...

ideally right guard gives you more pop even in a zone scheme...

This was one of two run downs from Hoops after watchin every snap from Dallas in the game. Not paper but actually watching what he did.
 
at buffalo week 2...

This was one of two run downs from Hoops after watchin every snap from Dallas in the game. Not paper but actually watching what he did.

I get that -- and appreciate the work. No question.

But even though that is better than paper (by a lot) it still is lacking a huge amount of context -- context of game, and context of what a higher level player would have done in those same situations, with slightly (or greatly, as case may be) better blocks, better strength, better movement and situational soundness.

The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that even stuff like that -- once it is summed up -- still misses a lot, unless a person is able to watch (with experience, skill and high level of intuitive talent analysis) and see failure (or success) where others do not see it, and be able to envision what serious, high level play would look like in its place.

For instance, step it back from Thomas and the OL think about the WR position and Hartline (or Bess, etc.). You could look at stats, you could break down every route and every play from every game (just as is done here) and come up with, "Hey! Some good stuff there!" BUT, and a huge BUT, unless a person is able to see that same position and same route, etc. and what it looks like with high level play, he will have no clue as to the real limitation of that player. And how that player, so limited, kills a team over time.

FULLER PICTURE: If you take a limited player and impose that limitation on one or two plays, it doesn't hurt that badly. But when you impose it over 40 plays in a whole game, it's can create exponential effect totally unseen on the stat sheet. Now, take that same limitation on key plays: the factor of importance grows, in failure, if that limited player cannot be counted on to perform highly in the handful of plays in a game that are game-turners or game-breakers.

To use the Hartline or Bess illustration: Limiting a skill position like they did, over a game, over a season, over five years -- a huge disparity play potential that is simply chopped off a team's ceiling. All because someone looked at individual plays (without understanding positional and team context) and thought, "Hey! Not horrible. Maybe limited but dependable!"

That's the same thing I see happening with Thomas.

I hope I'm wrong!

Don't think I am, though.

LD
 
First, a person can use PAPER to make a player look like an all-pro, or at least like an above average level starter at the position. People did it with Hartline for YEARS until it became self-evident of the player that he was, and vast limitations exposed by being asked to be a complete WR.

Second, if "not horrible" is the standard for a player that you are then supposedly cool with being a starter, that whole mindset is how teams are perennial 8-8 or worse. That same level of thinking was used to justify the train wreck of Jonni Martin, right up until the time he dropped his lunch tray after someone snapped his bra.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same people that defended giving Joni Martin more chances are using similar arguments for Dallas Thomas -- "Well, if you look at this angle, or this position, during this time frame, it wasn't soooo bad..."

Right. Those kinds of players get DESTROYED by top level competition. Miami needs an interior line that can dominate against good DLs. Especially in this division. We're freekin' lucky that RT17 isn't already concussed out of the league.

LD

LMAO:lol2:
 
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