Who cares if he is Riley's all-time favorite or not? What does that have to do w/ him being an HOF player? He's an overrated player, #s don't lie. Only 2 All NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teams, only made the all D team twice, could never win when he was the focal point of a team. heck even in college as a 1 seed his GU team nearly lost to 16th seeded Princeton and wound up losing in the Sweet 16 and that was his ONLY trip to the Sweet 16 in 4 years despite being a high seed 3 of the 4 years. The man is a choker, he was a GOOD player but no way belongs in the HOF discussion.
‘Phil is just showing up’ with Lakers, ’Zo says
- Thread starter BAMAPHIN 22
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Who cares if he is Riley's all-time favorite or not? What does that have to do w/ him being an HOF player? He's an overrated player, #s don't lie. Only 2 All NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teams, only made the all D team twice, could never win when he was the focal point of a team. heck even in college as a 1 seed his GU team nearly lost to 16th seeded Princeton and wound up losing in the Sweet 16 and that was his ONLY trip to the Sweet 16 in 4 years despite being a high seed 3 of the 4 years. The man is a choker, he was a GOOD player but no way belongs in the HOF discussion.
Weren't numbers just a part of how good a player is?
Individual #s don't tell the whole story but the fact that his teams always underachieved in postseason when he was the focal point tell the rest. :D
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
Most of those names you mentioned are well before my time so I won't pretend like I can compare them to Zo, however, researching some of them I don't recognize it seems they too were great players in their own right, a couple of which just missed out on the HoF.
And where did I say that Zo was a hall of famer? I said he was a great player. You also suggested that I claimed Zo was a legendary player.. no.. I said he was a legendary defender, which his shot blocking statistics speak for themself.
I said Zo was a great player, and he was. He did great things for Miami, turning a losing expansion franchise into a consistent contender every year. Zo was a top 10(probably top 5) center of the 1990s.
Great players make the HOF, Zo was not great. he was good. Miami was never a true contender w/ Zo as the focal point, they made the one conf finals thanks to half the Knick team getting suspended. he certainly wasn't a top 5 C of the 90s, probably top 10.
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
Really? Who then?
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutumbo
And, no, the greatest players(or legends) get into the hall of fame. There are still plenty of great players who won't and don't make it.
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
So, according to your logic Junc if you don't win a title with your team you're not great..
so.. Elgin Baylor wasn't great, Barkley wasn't, Karl Malone/Stockton wasn't, Dominique Wilkins?
so.. Elgin Baylor wasn't great, Barkley wasn't, Karl Malone/Stockton wasn't, Dominique Wilkins?
You just named 5 so clearly he isn't top 5.
Not at all. When Dominique had good teams around him he had the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons to run into.
Barkley made the NBA Finals
Malone/Stockton made TWO Finals
Baylor made a million Finals apps
Zo only made 1 conf final and did so b/c another team had half it's team suspended in the semis. He was part of a 1 seed that lost to an 8 seed. Mourning was a nice, complimentary player thrust into the role of franchise player. He does not belong in the HOF discussion.
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
I named 5, the 5th being Zo. You are correct. An argument could be made to put Mutumbo ahead, but it's close enough to not matter. He was a top 5 center for that decade.
Your logic is unraveling in front of your eyes. Stop trying to tip toe around it.
Malone/Stockton are two great players who played TOGETHER they still couldn't win, why? This team called the Chicago Bulls.
And you don't think those Knicks teams were good with Ewing, Houston, Johnson? They were as good as a team as the Heat, and got the better of us in close out games of extremely close series.
Wouldn't you say Ewing cancels out Zo? And it's not like the Heat weren't competitve against the Knicks, but yes they did beat us more. The year we beat the Knicks we ran into the Bulls in the EFC. A team which would have beaten the Heat any year anyway.
And for the 3rd time now I didn't claim Zo was a HoFer. As for what qualifies as being 'great' that's a matter of opinion. I'd speculate most basketball fans would agree that you don't have to be a hall of famer to be considered a great player but maybe i'm wrong.
Some players don't win because of circumstance, not lack of individual talent, in all sports. Learn to accept that fact.
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Amars
Championship or nothing.
Zo was good player but I think he piggy back a championship and rob the nets of $$$. I dont think he was great center but a decent one.
GoonBoss
Finheaven Templar
Phil Jackson has had some of the most talented player of a Generation on his team...Oh, wait...So did Red Auerbach. Great men know how to make the most of great talent. One could argue, Jackson could have imploded both the Bulls and, the Lakers. He didn't. He managed both teams through tough times and, set a standard for team play and legitimate consistant excellence. To say that Phil Jackson is "just showing up" is to say, all great coaches "just show up."
Mutombo is clearly ahead of him b/c he was a great defensive player.
DM all D team 1st team 3 times, Zo twice
DM all D 2nd team 3 times, Zo NONE
DM all NBA 3 times, Zo twice
DM DPOY 4 times, ZO twice
DM 8 AS games, Zo 7
DM 1st in total rebs 4 times, Zo NONE
both 1st in blocks twice
These 2 aren't close.
Unraveling?:lol2: You have brought nothing to support your claim.
Stockton and malone made the West Finals multiple times before making 2 Finals apps
Those Knick teams were good but far from great and the '99 version wasn't as good as the '99 Heat yet they beat them as an 8 seed.
The year you beat the Knicks half the Knick team was suspended! you wouldn't have made the conf finals that year had it nto been for that brawl.
I agree Zo isn't a HOFre but he also wasn't great.
I agree somewaht w/ your last line but why did Zo always have circumstances preventing him? He had great college talent and never even made an elite 8, he had good teams around him in the NBA and made 1 conf final(again b/c of suspensions). Zo was not a big time player, he was a complimentary player thrust into a stars role which he couldn't handle.
Teams that win championships always have great players on their team. I hate it when people try and use that as an excuse for why a coach like Phil Jackson has as many titles as he does (not blaming you Goon).
Phil had Pippen and Jordan/Shaq and Kobe
Celtics had Garnett, Allen and Pierce
Lakers had Bryant and Gasol
Spurs had Duncan, Parker and Ginobili
Pistons had Billups, Wallace and Hamilton
Not to mention all the talent that came off the bench for these teams too. Championships teams always have superstar talent on their roster (NBA that is). That's how you in. Phil Jackson has 10 rings now and certainly has to be considered in the Top 3 of all-time, at least.
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
What the.. "These two aren't close."? Time to wake up and sniff the smelling salts, you're in fantasy land. And you actually bring up Mutombo's individual achievements - but when it's convenient to you it's ok right?
Zo's peak was higher, Mutombo had the longevity. Zo was the bigger offensive threat, always. Defensively it's a wash. I'd love for you to explain to me how it wasn't close outside of a couple of individual achievment awards.
As for team success, i'm not going to argue in circles with you about that. Your logic is just silly to me. You have to make a finals (even if you never win it) to be considered great.. Well, what is defined as "great" is open to interpretation, and we could argue all day about it and get no where, so lets not waste eachothers time.