Question on Phins Player Fits & Coaching?

[So Be]

We have used the ZBS, when the only fit was Pouncey, and it definitely did not work. We moved Dallas all over the OL, which made him useless for the year, which Philbin admitted. We did not develop or use Clay much at TE until last year, when he has really come on.

We did not use Odrick as a full time DT until last year, when he has really come on. We changed Wheeler from SLB, where he played well in Oakland, to WLB where he was horrible. We changed Jones' play after him having a VG year. We got a 3-4 ILB in Ellerbe to play MLB, which has not worked out.

And then, there is Jordan, who all the coaches wanted. However, the vast majority see him as a OLB, and not a DE.

That's a lot of questionable moves. Was it Ireland, the coaches or, a combo making these mistakes?

 

[PHINSfan]

very good question indeed! That's one of the great things about Shula, and his coaches. They adapted their system to whatever players they had, instead of the other way around. To me, that's a sign of great coaching!

 

[123phins]

Dion Jordan is a DE in a 4-3 but needs to get some pounds on him. His stature doesnt really fit a 4-3 OLB. That said He is still capable of doing both. Vernon was the same story if im not misten, he was veiwed as an OLB and now he is being praised as a DE in his second year.

Everything else is pretty spot on though. I would put the majority of that on Ireland because really when it comes down to the coaches they have to work with what they were given and after hearing many stories about how Philban and Irelnad didnt get along the personnel was what Ireland wanted and not as much of what the staff wanted. I think the Dallas Thomas experiment last year was more so that they felt they needed another tackle so they tried to get him to play tackle when he was clearly a Guard. This year we should be able to see him play guard and either win the starting spot or be a solid backup.

 

[Los Dolfins]

This is the best thread here in a long time. No rah rah,, just facts. Ireland was poor as a talent selector, but this regime has tons to prove...still. This is the last chance Philbin has to make his mark. We'll see. I have more faith in Hickey than Philbin right now.

 

[cullenbigcstill]

I just don't get what their deal was last year in changing players positions and expecting it to work positively across the board and to overpay while doing so.

If we needed a legit 4-3 DE be 6'5" 270lbs why didn't we go and get him, when he was right there for the taking! Ziggy Ansah was an impact player from the get go, was a starter for a bunch of games and had close to 10 sacks I'm sure. But we go and get a clear 3-4 OLB and force him to convert to DE! Ridiculous. If the reasoning was to cover TEs well put him at OLB because it's not often DEs play zone or man coverage. Whatever I'm preaching to other preachers!

Let's hope that the buffoonery is gone and that this staff figures **** out fast together and on the same page. I have no problem with a 3-4 DE converting to 4-3DT if his size, weight, experience, power and skill allows the change but to imagine a player can just do it because of height weight ratio is absurd.

I have big hopes for DJ95 as I'm sure all of you do, but he's got a long ways to go. He did play specials all year and played 25% snaps and didn't post the tackles he should have with that much opportunity. Which may be the reason he doesn't fit at LB because he can't tackle well enough, just speculation on my part. I don't know, but I do know we need production and we gave up possible 2 starters for him and he's not fulfilling the value we paid for him, yet.

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

 

[utahphinsfan]

Everything else is pretty spot on though. I would put the majority of that on Ireland because really when it comes down to the coaches they have to work with what they were given and after hearing many stories about how Philban and Irelnad didnt get along the personnel was what Ireland wanted and not as much of what the staff wanted. I think the Dallas Thomas experiment last year was more so that they felt they needed another tackle so they tried to get him to play tackle when he was clearly a Guard. This year we should be able to see him play guard and either win the starting spot or be a solid backup.

Three of the problems w/ Jeffy were; 1) he got fixated on certain players or those fitting the Tuna/meatball scheme, 2) he was not very adaptable, & 3) it was either his way or no way at all.

 

[Digital]

I don't see these as all the same issues. They stem from different issues IMHO. Here is what I mean.

The ZBS was part of an overall WCO scheme brought in by the new coaching staff that basically changed almost every scheme we were using under Parcells/Sparano. That was. Drastic change and that much personnel could not effectively be changed out in one season, so there were transitional issues as we did it over multiple years.

We moved Dallas Thomas around because of 3 different things: 1, he was drafted for his versatility as someone who they thought could play both OG and OT ... They were wrong about OT. 2, We had needs dictating that we look for an upgrade during the season so they gave Dallas Thomas a chance to impress them ... and he failed miserably each time. 3, He was atrocious last year, so after they determined that he was so bad he couldn't even beat out Jonathan Martin at LT, they tried him at other positions and he stunk up the joint at each one.

Charles Clay isn't really a traditional TE, he is an undersized raw athlete who does best with extremely simple roles. He played sort of an H-Back/WR role for us last year, but when we asked him to block he struggled mightily. When we asked him to do more complex receiving assignments he struggled. The one thing he did well was run at an angle fast past LB's on the simplest routes. IF we get him the ball in space he is a beast, but he has zero polish and flexibility in that role. He will never be a complete TE.


Odrick was drafted to be a 34 DE by the Parcells crew. He can play that role and did a decent job, but that role is similar to a 43 DT role. So, when we went from a 34 to a 43 he was the 3rd guy rotating behind Soliai as the NT type DT, and behind the best years of Starks as the gap penetrator type DT. At his size he could fill in for both as well as play strong side DE. We didnt have anyone else to play strong side DE so Odrick performed both roles as a bit of a tweener, since that is what we needes. Now that OV has emerged, Odrick is free to play as a gap penetrator DT and specialize, which has helped him excel.

Wheeler doesn't have the power to be stout at the point of attack, but he has excellent pursuit so we made him a blitzing WOLB. He was effective at producing pressure. Unfortunately, his coverage was abysmal and teams knew he want stout so they also ran towards him. Not sure how to fix that one, but I doubt it is by moving him to SOLB.

In Coyle ' system we ask our safeties to do both roles as a hybrid SS/FS. Jones had a down year, but I'm not sure it was because of a different role.

Jordan, to me, always screamed 34 OLB. Coming in with an injury really marginalized his steep learning curve development. He was super thin for DE and easily moved in run defense. He is an excellent athlete, but he simply doesn't possess the freakish raw strength that Jason Taylor possessed, so he is going to have to add bulk and power as well as drastically improve his leverage and technique before he becomes dependable on anything but sure pass downs. That takes time.

Some of that is Ireland's fault for sure, but there are a lot of other things going on with these players as well.

Sorry for the long post. That is my $0.02 on it.

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