Questionable moves
- Thread starter Steve S
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FakeSpike13
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The draft is still there to address all these questions...
miamirw
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Good answers. I agree.
In every case, Saban has a back up plan. That's what i see. So we're covered in the event Plan A doesn't work.
Carey gets a shot at LT. If he wins, McIntosh is back up LT. If he loses, Carey moves to RG to push Hadnot and McIntosh settles in at LT.
If Tillman doesn't produce, we've got bell waiting in the wings.
We'll use the draft to give us that same comfort at Center, WR and RB.
Rhody Phins Fan
FinHeaven VIP
Minor will just be a backup. Hes a solid backup to have.
rhadaddy
Who's your daddy?
LT's have special athletic qualities. Carey is a big power player. I don't see Houdini making this switch work, but who knows? Everybody in here has avoided the question of what happens to Carey's confidence if he crashes and burns at yet another OL position.
I'm not optimistic about this move either and it can be a tactic by Saban to throw off what he's doing. In regards to what happens if Carey fails, then we would've wasted a 1st and 4th round pick, but we still have a healthy D-Mac and Wade Smith. In fact, despite not having a running game and being slammed basically every every down with blitzes from opposing defenses, the line not only made progress under Bates but actually look servicable at times when they went to a zone blocking scheme. Houck is know as a master teacher and motivator, unlike Wise, and if he can take 3 rookies and make that SD line successful, I'd love to see what he can do here.
Minor hasn't shown us anything since his rookie year. He's another wasted Spielstadt first day pick and a lot of it goes on him for not improving or stepping up at all last year. Sammie Morris did.
Isn't it ironic how Minor has "regressed" since his rookie year, which coincides with the arrival of Norv Turner and his over hyped offensive system. Minor was not cut out for this system and ironically enough, adding Wanny's "wadball philoshopy to Norv's offense.. made several promising players look bad or like under acheivers. Again you're reading way too much into a 1 year contract, which basically garauntee's nothing except a shot at being one of the running backs in this Linehan's offense. Every year too much has been made about some of our offseason signings, when in reality, we don't have to start cutting anyone until training camp. So why not collect as much talent as we can afford and see how things shake out?
Maybe but again how much is Spielman justifying his work in the past? Whitley was another 3rd round pick who just can't cut it. He's a doughboy who flat out sucks, was the worst player by far on a very bad line. James at his worst can't touch the ineptitude and lack of any ability as lineman that Whitley showed.
I honestly haven't seen enough of whitley to mkae those kinds of statements, however it doesn't speak well if you can't crack our broken offensive line. But again why go out and just cut him, when he hasn't been under the tutiledge of Houck. Wise is not know as a teacher, which is what young offensive lineman need. I won't say he'll make the team, however what does releasing Whitley at this point of the year does for us besides freeing up minimal cap space. This part of the offseason is for collecting and evalutaing players before you start to cut them, unless they're a cap casualty.
People want to give ol Reggie a break but D-backs either make plays or they don't and I'm afraid that that little poodle don't hunt for anybody. The move to sign him to a pretty big deal might be one of the worst moves made in what was the most desperate and poorly thought outoffseasons in history. Especially if his awful contract is one of the reasons we can't afford to keep Pat.
No the worst move in offseason history is the Lions signing Scott Mitchell. The Reggie Howard signing was questionable. But like I said earlier he was a square peg in a round hole in Jim Bates press defense. I would like to see what these players do under a Nick Saban designed defense.
Pat wasn't nearly as effective last year as he was in years past. That's one of the reasons why he hasn't been traded yet. He's a great cover corner, but with the Refs calling penalties for minor contact on virtually every passing play , Surtains press skills have taken a hit. Yes he's great at jamming a reciever in the "5 yard zone", however he wasn't nearly as effective in zone coverage. Add that to his age, knees and contract demands, that equals a luxury this team can't afford.
They moved pretty decisively to sign those safeties so I think they have a good idea they want them both to start.
I can see what you're saying about Tebuckey Jones, but not Tillman. Keep in mind that Tillman is a reclamamtion project that if he doesn't pan out, can easily be cut. With us releasing the over priced Freeman, we needed someone in there to bring in the offseason. I wouldn't be suprised if we draft a safety or sign a couple more before training camp.
I didn't see Tebucky make a lot of plays ever, even with the great coaching of Belichick.
That's why No traded for him a couple offseasons ago :shakeno: I guess there's always going to be second guessing unless we sign a Darius, or Sharper. Truth is no one has a clue outside of the staff and players what Saban intends to do on defense. Having a hard hitting sure tackler on defense as your strong safety is a good place to start.
It's funny how people on this board laughed at NE, when they signed Rodney Harrison, because the year before Ricky juked him outta his shoes and made him look like a fool. In the right setting, he's looked all pro.
Jones is not Harrison by any stretch, but it's funny how, Hugh Douglas can look all pro in Philly and look like a flop in Jax. This league is a system based league and from the looks of it Saban is trying to bring in his "type" of players while still adapting his defense to fit our current personnell.
I'm not optimistic about this move either and it can be a tactic by Saban to throw off what he's doing. In regards to what happens if Carey fails, then we would've wasted a 1st and 4th round pick, but we still have a healthy D-Mac and Wade Smith. In fact, despite not having a running game and being slammed basically every every down with blitzes from opposing defenses, the line not only made progress under Bates but actually look servicable at times when they went to a zone blocking scheme. Houck is know as a master teacher and motivator, unlike Wise, and if he can take 3 rookies and make that SD line successful, I'd love to see what he can do here.
Minor hasn't shown us anything since his rookie year. He's another wasted Spielstadt first day pick and a lot of it goes on him for not improving or stepping up at all last year. Sammie Morris did.
Isn't it ironic how Minor has "regressed" since his rookie year, which coincides with the arrival of Norv Turner and his over hyped offensive system. Minor was not cut out for this system and ironically enough, adding Wanny's "wadball philoshopy to Norv's offense.. made several promising players look bad or like under acheivers. Again you're reading way too much into a 1 year contract, which basically garauntee's nothing except a shot at being one of the running backs in this Linehan's offense. Every year too much has been made about some of our offseason signings, when in reality, we don't have to start cutting anyone until training camp. So why not collect as much talent as we can afford and see how things shake out?
Maybe but again how much is Spielman justifying his work in the past? Whitley was another 3rd round pick who just can't cut it. He's a doughboy who flat out sucks, was the worst player by far on a very bad line. James at his worst can't touch the ineptitude and lack of any ability as lineman that Whitley showed.
I honestly haven't seen enough of whitley to mkae those kinds of statements, however it doesn't speak well if you can't crack our broken offensive line. But again why go out and just cut him, when he hasn't been under the tutiledge of Houck. Wise is not know as a teacher, which is what young offensive lineman need. I won't say he'll make the team, however what does releasing Whitley at this point of the year does for us besides freeing up minimal cap space. This part of the offseason is for collecting and evalutaing players before you start to cut them, unless they're a cap casualty.
People want to give ol Reggie a break but D-backs either make plays or they don't and I'm afraid that that little poodle don't hunt for anybody. The move to sign him to a pretty big deal might be one of the worst moves made in what was the most desperate and poorly thought outoffseasons in history. Especially if his awful contract is one of the reasons we can't afford to keep Pat.
No the worst move in offseason history is the Lions signing Scott Mitchell. The Reggie Howard signing was questionable. But like I said earlier he was a square peg in a round hole in Jim Bates press defense. I would like to see what these players do under a Nick Saban designed defense.
Pat wasn't nearly as effective last year as he was in years past. That's one of the reasons why he hasn't been traded yet. He's a great cover corner, but with the Refs calling penalties for minor contact on virtually every passing play , Surtains press skills have taken a hit. Yes he's great at jamming a reciever in the "5 yard zone", however he wasn't nearly as effective in zone coverage. Add that to his age, knees and contract demands, that equals a luxury this team can't afford.
They moved pretty decisively to sign those safeties so I think they have a good idea they want them both to start.
I can see what you're saying about Tebuckey Jones, but not Tillman. Keep in mind that Tillman is a reclamamtion project that if he doesn't pan out, can easily be cut. With us releasing the over priced Freeman, we needed someone in there to bring in the offseason. I wouldn't be suprised if we draft a safety or sign a couple more before training camp.
I didn't see Tebucky make a lot of plays ever, even with the great coaching of Belichick.
That's why No traded for him a couple offseasons ago :shakeno: I guess there's always going to be second guessing unless we sign a Darius, or Sharper. Truth is no one has a clue outside of the staff and players what Saban intends to do on defense. Having a hard hitting sure tackler on defense as your strong safety is a good place to start.
It's funny how people on this board laughed at NE, when they signed Rodney Harrison, because the year before Ricky juked him outta his shoes and made him look like a fool. In the right setting, he's looked all pro.
Jones is not Harrison by any stretch, but it's funny how, Hugh Douglas can look all pro in Philly and look like a flop in Jax. This league is a system based league and from the looks of it Saban is trying to bring in his "type" of players while still adapting his defense to fit our current personnell.
Steve S said:
1) Moving him to left tackle is just a possibility at this point I think, nothing is written in stone.
2) Travis Minor was very effective in the wide open offense at FSU, he was always a bad fit for unimaginative offenses Wannstedt wanted to run, he could very well fit in nicely with linehans offense.
3) The Surtain situation was dictated by our cap situation, his cap number and contract demands for an extension, I think they have handled this as well as they could have.
4) We can't fix everything in one off-season, that being said we should let the draft and the rest of the off-season finish before we judge our safety position.
rhadaddy
Who's your daddy?
The one thing I liked about last years draft...
Aside from the Carey Debacle, which still can be salvaged is, it marked the first time in a long time we had a pattern to the way we drafted. If you go back a re-read the draft bios. most of the picks last year were blue collar, hard hitting, mean streak football players.
Unfortunately as promising as Pope looked, he may be too small in a Saban defense, however we weren't draft with Saban in mind last year.
Since Saban has come here, you can see a pattern in the way he's building this team.
The coaching staff has a mixture of older coaches and youth to compensate for the inevitable turn around staffs experience when they're successful.
He's taken that same pattern with the players as well. On Sirius radio, they were chiding Saban , saying the carter and holdiay siginings are win now signings, the defense is old, blah, blah, blah. But they probably don't realize that, these players were brought in as veterans that can give you 2-3 years of service while he starts drafting his "types" of players and molding them into his sytem. So again there's a perfect mixture of old and youth to compensate for player turnover.
That's why Philly and NE has been so successful, on the field, cap wise and always get high comp picks, because they always have a young guy picked specifically to play a role on that team, who's constantly put in a position to succeed, so it makes it easier and more palatable to let stars like Ty Law leave via FA or trade.
Aside from the Carey Debacle, which still can be salvaged is, it marked the first time in a long time we had a pattern to the way we drafted. If you go back a re-read the draft bios. most of the picks last year were blue collar, hard hitting, mean streak football players.
Unfortunately as promising as Pope looked, he may be too small in a Saban defense, however we weren't draft with Saban in mind last year.
Since Saban has come here, you can see a pattern in the way he's building this team.
The coaching staff has a mixture of older coaches and youth to compensate for the inevitable turn around staffs experience when they're successful.
He's taken that same pattern with the players as well. On Sirius radio, they were chiding Saban , saying the carter and holdiay siginings are win now signings, the defense is old, blah, blah, blah. But they probably don't realize that, these players were brought in as veterans that can give you 2-3 years of service while he starts drafting his "types" of players and molding them into his sytem. So again there's a perfect mixture of old and youth to compensate for player turnover.
That's why Philly and NE has been so successful, on the field, cap wise and always get high comp picks, because they always have a young guy picked specifically to play a role on that team, who's constantly put in a position to succeed, so it makes it easier and more palatable to let stars like Ty Law leave via FA or trade.
Knight was a playmaker, but he was also a play giver-upper. Remember the pass from Brady to Troy Brown in OT two years ago? That play changed the whole season. And in Saban's defensive scheme he'd be doing that on a regular basis. Plus, he's getting paid way too much by KC.
Right and this is why I think Saban will find some kind of place for Rick Spielman -- they both target the same kinds of players from a psychological perspective (not standpoint). I LOVE the picks we got last year, Carey aside, and I think Spielman was targeting Shawn Andrews and got buffaloed anyway.rhadaddy said:
yamutha3002
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Surferosa said:
Couldn't have said better myself. Carey is a much more mobile, stronger, and all around bigger (wingspan, weight, height etc.) then McIntosh.
If Houck can make all these guys look worthy of starting like Mac a former 3rd rd pick (obviously he wasn't exactly considered the man you had to have at LT coming out of college) and guys like Romen Oben (yeah he played so great in 03' that Gruden went out of his way to aquire the services of an older Derrick Deese to replace him in the line up and then ship him off to SD for 5th rd pick) and guys like Shane Olivea (I hope your kidding me this guy was a 7th rd pick starting at RT last year) then I'd be shocked if Houck couldn't make Vernon into at a serviceable LT for us. If Houck can't get Carey to start somewhere next year then Carey should just be banded from the NFL.
DonShula84
Sporty Don
Careys move to LT isnt definite we are just trying him out, no proble with that. And dumping dead wait will happen in training camp, Saban needs to see these guys before he starts cutting them and Minors deal is 1 year I dont think he is here long term