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Questioning the Coach & the Front Office

flintsilver7

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I know a lot of you will be flaming me for this, because you think that Saban can do no wrong. However, I'm trying to start some discussion here anyway.

1) The decision to bring Saban on. Personally, I thought Jim Bates was a much better choice to be a coach. Bates wasn't ever really in serious consideration, despite his standing with the team and his vast improvement over Wannstedt. For all of Saban's supposed defensive magic, we've got three or four outstanding players on this defense and Green Bay is still better than Miami in most defensive categories (including total defense and scoring). That to me is inexcusable. That said, I think a coach needs a full year to be fully evaluated. The Dolphins, however, were NOT the 49ers, as Ricky Williams was more or less the difference between 10-6 and 4-12.

2) Obviously, Gus Frerotte. If anybody was deluded enough to think Frerotte was part of Miami's future before the season, they shouldn't be thinking it now. Frerotte, sadly, is only playing slightly below his career numbers. I live in Redskins country, and they will ALL tell you that this is exactly what Gus does. We had nothing to lose and everything to gain by testing A.J. Feeley with this team, compared to having nothing to lose and nothing to gain by playing Frerotte. I do not want to hear any comparisons to the Ronnie Brown quote, because Gus is a longtime veteran while Brown has played 6 games.

3) Ricky Williams. I don't think the team wanted him back, and while I understand there were potential gains - either he does well, and then can benefit the team, or he does well enough to attract something of value in trade. Well, he hasn't shown anything yet. I don't know if that's entirely fair, because he hasn't had much exposure and can still catch the ball. However, Brown is really starting to improve. He should be getting the bulk of the carries as long as he's fresh.

4) Personnel. I think Saban drafted well - Daniels and Crowder are going to be pretty good. Roth hasn't shown anything yet, but he might. He hasn't really played. I like the defensive line overhaul. It sucks that Taylor has fasciitis, as he'll probably have a quiet season from now on, but both Taylor and Thomas have a few good years left in them. They're veterans, but they're not old. (Thomas is 32 and Taylor is 31.) Spragan has been serviceable. I think Seau should be allowed to freelance if that's what he does, since the guy carries more clout right now than Saban likely ever will. (See: Greg Williams and LaVar Arrington.) The offensive line - we HAVE potential in-house. Carey and Hadnot will be good. I believed that last year and I believe it this year. McDougle was apparently a waste. McIntosh might be good, as I think he's improving here. We need a center in the worst way.

Basically it all comes down to Frerotte. If we have ANY kind of decent quarterback, we're 4-2 or 5-1. Frerotte has played two decent games (2.5 if you count Buffalo) and we're 2-4. Coincidence? Not to me. The offense has completely stalled sometimes - due mostly due to Frerotte's inaccuracy and partly due to Ronnie Brown being underutilized. If the offense gets moving a little, then the defense (currently ranked 30th in time of possession) gets a bit of a break. We all like to blame the defense - I did as much here - but the fact of the matter is they're ranked 7th in yards per play. They're on the field so much - they get tired. I can't explain the opening drive syndrome they've been experiencing, but for the most part the other team has been earning their points. When they have so many chances, it hurts them.
 
flintsilver7 said:
I know a lot of you will be flaming me for this, because you think that Saban can do no wrong. However, I'm trying to start some discussion here anyway.

1) The decision to bring Saban on. Personally, I thought Jim Bates was a much better choice to be a coach. Bates wasn't ever really in serious consideration, despite his standing with the team and his vast improvement over Wannstedt. For all of Saban's supposed defensive magic, we've got three or four outstanding players on this defense and Green Bay is still better than Miami in most defensive categories (including total defense and scoring). That to me is inexcusable. That said, I think a coach needs a full year to be fully evaluated. The Dolphins, however, were NOT the 49ers, as Ricky Williams was more or less the difference between 10-6 and 4-12.

2) Obviously, Gus Frerotte. If anybody was deluded enough to think Frerotte was part of Miami's future before the season, they shouldn't be thinking it now. Frerotte, sadly, is only playing slightly below his career numbers. I live in Redskins country, and they will ALL tell you that this is exactly what Gus does. We had nothing to lose and everything to gain by testing A.J. Feeley with this team, compared to having nothing to lose and nothing to gain by playing Frerotte. I do not want to hear any comparisons to the Ronnie Brown quote, because Gus is a longtime veteran while Brown has played 6 games.

3) Ricky Williams. I don't think the team wanted him back, and while I understand there were potential gains - either he does well, and then can benefit the team, or he does well enough to attract something of value in trade. Well, he hasn't shown anything yet. I don't know if that's entirely fair, because he hasn't had much exposure and can still catch the ball. However, Brown is really starting to improve. He should be getting the bulk of the carries as long as he's fresh.

4) Personnel. I think Saban drafted well - Daniels and Crowder are going to be pretty good. Roth hasn't shown anything yet, but he might. He hasn't really played. I like the defensive line overhaul. It sucks that Taylor has fasciitis, as he'll probably have a quiet season from now on, but both Taylor and Thomas have a few good years left in them. They're veterans, but they're not old. (Thomas is 32 and Taylor is 31.) Spragan has been serviceable. I think Seau should be allowed to freelance if that's what he does, since the guy carries more clout right now than Saban likely ever will. (See: Greg Williams and LaVar Arrington.) The offensive line - we HAVE potential in-house. Carey and Hadnot will be good. I believed that last year and I believe it this year. McDougle was apparently a waste. McIntosh might be good, as I think he's improving here. We need a center in the worst way.

Basically it all comes down to Frerotte. If we have ANY kind of decent quarterback, we're 4-2 or 5-1. Frerotte has played two decent games (2.5 if you count Buffalo) and we're 2-4. Coincidence? Not to me. The offense has completely stalled sometimes - due mostly due to Frerotte's inaccuracy and partly due to Ronnie Brown being underutilized. If the offense gets moving a little, then the defense (currently ranked 30th in time of possession) gets a bit of a break. We all like to blame the defense - I did as much here - but the fact of the matter is they're ranked 7th in yards per play. They're on the field so much - they get tired. I can't explain the opening drive syndrome they've been experiencing, but for the most part the other team has been earning their points. When they have so many chances, it hurts them.

Well, when you said you thought Bates was a better choice to be head coach over Saban that told me all I needed to know.

If you can't see this organization is light years ahead of where it was and is heading in the right direction its probably for the same reason you thought Bates would be better than Saban.
 
flintsilver7 said:
Basically it all comes down to Frerotte. If we have ANY kind of decent quarterback, we're 4-2 or 5-1. Frerotte has played two decent games (2.5 if you count Buffalo) and we're 2-4. Coincidence? Not to me. The offense has completely stalled sometimes - due mostly due to Frerotte's inaccuracy and partly due to Ronnie Brown being underutilized. If the offense gets moving a little, then the defense (currently ranked 30th in time of possession) gets a bit of a break. We all like to blame the defense - I did as much here - but the fact of the matter is they're ranked 7th in yards per play. They're on the field so much - they get tired. I can't explain the opening drive syndrome they've been experiencing, but for the most part the other team has been earning their points. When they have so many chances, it hurts them.


You typed all of that to say it all comes down to Frerotte?

:shakeno:

You also make excuses for the defense?
:rolleyes2

The whole mess is what it is. It is all on Saban too. I don't care what people here like to think, but when he took over, all the responsibility will lay with him when his team comes up short. He is in complete control and has total influence in the product we see on Sundays.

Linehan decides to pass it 40 times....Saban HAS to sign off on that or it wouldn't be happening.
 
BlueFin said:
Well, when you said you thought Bates was a better choice to be head coach over Saban that told me all I needed to know.

If you can't see this organization is light years ahead of where it was and is heading in the right direction its probably for the same reason you thought Bates would be better than Saban.

Bates was an outstanding defensive coordinator. Saban has an impressive pedigree, both in the NFL and at the college level. On paper, there is no question of who's more qualified.

However, Bates got the most out of his players, and Saban so far has not. Say what you will, but Bates was 3-4 with a substantially worse team than Saban has, and Saban's 2-4. You can't tell me that Bates did not show anything as head coach here.
 
flintsilver7 said:
For all of Saban's supposed defensive magic, we've got three or four outstanding players on this defense and Green Bay is still better than Miami in most defensive categories (including total defense and scoring). That to me is inexcusable. That said, I think a coach needs a full year to be fully evaluated. The Dolphins, however, were NOT the 49ers, as Ricky Williams was more or less the difference between 10-6 and 4-12.

Green Bay just has better defensive numbers due to ONE thing.......Their Secondary is way better than ours!!! (Everybody's Secondary is way bettr than ours) And the quote about Ricky being the difference last year between 10-6, and 4-12 is just rediculous in my mind. RW would NOT have made any difference at all last season, our O-line was so horrible, and our QB was just as bad. I don't care how good RW still might have been, you this guy behind the swiss cheese of an O-line we had, and he probably averages 3.5 YPC at best
 
outlawd2u said:
Green Bay just has better defensive numbers due to ONE thing.......Their Secondary is way better than ours!!! (Everybody's Secondary is way bettr than ours) And the quote about Ricky being the difference last year between 10-6, and 4-12 is just rediculous in my mind. RW would NOT have made any difference at all last season, our O-line was so horrible, and our QB was just as bad. I don't care how good RW still might have been, you this guy behind the swiss cheese of an O-line we had, and he probably averages 3.5 YPC at best

Ricky averaged exactly 3.5 YPC in 2003, and the Dolphins were 10-6.
 
BlueFin said:
Well, when you said you thought Bates was a better choice to be head coach over Saban that told me all I needed to know.


I stop reading after I saw that....
 
flintsilver7 said:
Bates was an outstanding defensive coordinator. Saban has an impressive pedigree, both in the NFL and at the college level. On paper, there is no question of who's more qualified.

However, Bates got the most out of his players, and Saban so far has not. Say what you will, but Bates was 3-4 with a substantially worse team than Saban has, and Saban's 2-4. You can't tell me that Bates did not show anything as head coach here.

Dude, you want to get excited about wins over the 49'ers and Browns last year? Two of the three worst teams in the league?:lol:

There is much more to having a successful organization than just having a good head coach, we now have all the pieces of the puzzle in place and simply need to sit back and watch this team get built.

We did not then, and do we not now have enough talent to be a playoff team.
 
What has Jim Bates done in Green Bay? They lost the game for the Packers yesterday. GB was up 17-0, and guess who failed? The defense has been their weak link the last 2 years, and Bates is their DC for at least this year.


I like Jim Bates, but he doesn't warrant as much respect as Saban.

Besides, GB is 1-5, so I don't see how their Defense is better
 
Some of you overreactors need to go back and look at the first season of Bill Walsh at San Fran., Jimmy Johnson at Dallas, Belichek at New England.

Many times you take a step back while fully evaluating what you really have before you start moving forwards.
 
flintsilver7 said:
I know a lot of you will be flaming me for this, because you think that Saban can do no wrong. However, I'm trying to start some discussion here anyway.

1) The decision to bring Saban on. Personally, I thought Jim Bates was a much better choice to be a coach. Bates wasn't ever really in serious consideration, despite his standing with the team and his vast improvement over Wannstedt. For all of Saban's supposed defensive magic, we've got three or four outstanding players on this defense and Green Bay is still better than Miami in most defensive categories (including total defense and scoring). That to me is inexcusable. That said, I think a coach needs a full year to be fully evaluated. The Dolphins, however, were NOT the 49ers, as Ricky Williams was more or less the difference between 10-6 and 4-12.

2) Obviously, Gus Frerotte. If anybody was deluded enough to think Frerotte was part of Miami's future before the season, they shouldn't be thinking it now. Frerotte, sadly, is only playing slightly below his career numbers. I live in Redskins country, and they will ALL tell you that this is exactly what Gus does. We had nothing to lose and everything to gain by testing A.J. Feeley with this team, compared to having nothing to lose and nothing to gain by playing Frerotte. I do not want to hear any comparisons to the Ronnie Brown quote, because Gus is a longtime veteran while Brown has played 6 games.

3) Ricky Williams. I don't think the team wanted him back, and while I understand there were potential gains - either he does well, and then can benefit the team, or he does well enough to attract something of value in trade. Well, he hasn't shown anything yet. I don't know if that's entirely fair, because he hasn't had much exposure and can still catch the ball. However, Brown is really starting to improve. He should be getting the bulk of the carries as long as he's fresh.

4) Personnel. I think Saban drafted well - Daniels and Crowder are going to be pretty good. Roth hasn't shown anything yet, but he might. He hasn't really played. I like the defensive line overhaul. It sucks that Taylor has fasciitis, as he'll probably have a quiet season from now on, but both Taylor and Thomas have a few good years left in them. They're veterans, but they're not old. (Thomas is 32 and Taylor is 31.) Spragan has been serviceable. I think Seau should be allowed to freelance if that's what he does, since the guy carries more clout right now than Saban likely ever will. (See: Greg Williams and LaVar Arrington.) The offensive line - we HAVE potential in-house. Carey and Hadnot will be good. I believed that last year and I believe it this year. McDougle was apparently a waste. McIntosh might be good, as I think he's improving here. We need a center in the worst way.

Basically it all comes down to Frerotte. If we have ANY kind of decent quarterback, we're 4-2 or 5-1. Frerotte has played two decent games (2.5 if you count Buffalo) and we're 2-4. Coincidence? Not to me. The offense has completely stalled sometimes - due mostly due to Frerotte's inaccuracy and partly due to Ronnie Brown being underutilized. If the offense gets moving a little, then the defense (currently ranked 30th in time of possession) gets a bit of a break. We all like to blame the defense - I did as much here - but the fact of the matter is they're ranked 7th in yards per play. They're on the field so much - they get tired. I can't explain the opening drive syndrome they've been experiencing, but for the most part the other team has been earning their points. When they have so many chances, it hurts them.

1) With Bates, the team would've played hard, no doubt, but we would not be better off, and for sure would not have a winning record this season either. Bates defenses are so vanilla. Why do you think that we always took a December slide, and exited the playoffs. It was because the defense couldn't stop anyone in the 4th quarter, because we were playing the same defense that we did in preseason game 1. Plus, if the Green Bays D was that good, they wouldn't have only won 1 game.

2) Obviously Gus is no savior, and obviously he is not the future of this team. But I don't want to lose either. Gus, for the most part, has been making good decisions, and not taking sacks. His accuracy/timing with WR's are just really off right now. I don't know why, but he can't hit the broad side of a barn. I hope he gets better, and we can win the rest of our home games at least.

3) The team wanted Ricky back for 2 reasons. One, depth in case Ronnie doen't pick up the offense, is a bust, or gets hurt. Two, he has value. He is playing for the Vet minimum, and is really good for that price. Also, I don't agree that Ricky would've won us 6 more games last season. Maybe 1 or 2, but not 6.

4) I agree that Saban drafted well. I was a bit suprised when he started bringing in guys like Carter, Holliday and Traylor. They are past their primes, and are not part of the 3-5 year plan with this team. I think they were brought in to be more stop gaps for now, with their knowledge and coaching abilities utilized for the young D-lineman.
 
flintsilver7 said:
I know a lot of you will be flaming me for this, because you think that Saban can do no wrong. However, I'm trying to start some discussion here anyway.

1) The decision to bring Saban on. Personally, I thought Jim Bates was a much better choice to be a coach. Bates wasn't ever really in serious consideration, despite his standing with the team and his vast improvement over Wannstedt. For all of Saban's supposed defensive magic, we've got three or four outstanding players on this defense and Green Bay is still better than Miami in most defensive categories (including total defense and scoring). That to me is inexcusable. That said, I think a coach needs a full year to be fully evaluated. The Dolphins, however, were NOT the 49ers, as Ricky Williams was more or less the difference between 10-6 and 4-12.

2) Obviously, Gus Frerotte. If anybody was deluded enough to think Frerotte was part of Miami's future before the season, they shouldn't be thinking it now. Frerotte, sadly, is only playing slightly below his career numbers. I live in Redskins country, and they will ALL tell you that this is exactly what Gus does. We had nothing to lose and everything to gain by testing A.J. Feeley with this team, compared to having nothing to lose and nothing to gain by playing Frerotte. I do not want to hear any comparisons to the Ronnie Brown quote, because Gus is a longtime veteran while Brown has played 6 games.

3) Ricky Williams. I don't think the team wanted him back, and while I understand there were potential gains - either he does well, and then can benefit the team, or he does well enough to attract something of value in trade. Well, he hasn't shown anything yet. I don't know if that's entirely fair, because he hasn't had much exposure and can still catch the ball. However, Brown is really starting to improve. He should be getting the bulk of the carries as long as he's fresh.

4) Personnel. I think Saban drafted well - Daniels and Crowder are going to be pretty good. Roth hasn't shown anything yet, but he might. He hasn't really played. I like the defensive line overhaul. It sucks that Taylor has fasciitis, as he'll probably have a quiet season from now on, but both Taylor and Thomas have a few good years left in them. They're veterans, but they're not old. (Thomas is 32 and Taylor is 31.) Spragan has been serviceable. I think Seau should be allowed to freelance if that's what he does, since the guy carries more clout right now than Saban likely ever will. (See: Greg Williams and LaVar Arrington.) The offensive line - we HAVE potential in-house. Carey and Hadnot will be good. I believed that last year and I believe it this year. McDougle was apparently a waste. McIntosh might be good, as I think he's improving here. We need a center in the worst way.

Basically it all comes down to Frerotte. If we have ANY kind of decent quarterback, we're 4-2 or 5-1. Frerotte has played two decent games (2.5 if you count Buffalo) and we're 2-4. Coincidence? Not to me. The offense has completely stalled sometimes - due mostly due to Frerotte's inaccuracy and partly due to Ronnie Brown being underutilized. If the offense gets moving a little, then the defense (currently ranked 30th in time of possession) gets a bit of a break. We all like to blame the defense - I did as much here - but the fact of the matter is they're ranked 7th in yards per play. They're on the field so much - they get tired. I can't explain the opening drive syndrome they've been experiencing, but for the most part the other team has been earning their points. When they have so many chances, it hurts them.

Saban--Im glad we got new blood. I think he has drafted well and brought in quality free agents with the limited cap we had in the offseason. Our defense went throught alot of changes in the offseason.. (Greenwood, Surtain, Knight, marion)...who have played together for years... (Bowens, Chester out with injuries...throw Seau in there)
What Saban has done is incredible with the defense and im not going to compare with Green Bay Defense.. l

Ferotte-- AJ is gone..dont want to hear about him anymore..he sucked. Ferotte was brought in to play until Saban finds a better FA or draft pick.

Ricky--ididnt want him back.. but i guess ill take depth.. if Ronnie Brown goes down with injury..i rather have ricky back there.... if not he might be great trade bait in the offseason.

Seau is done... i didnt want to see him back this season..because he just gets injured all the time.. like moore. We need OLB in the draft...wish we could have gotten DJ.
 
BlueFin said:
Well, when you said you thought Bates was a better choice to be head coach over Saban that told me all I needed to know.

If you can't see this organization is light years ahead of where it was and is heading in the right direction its probably for the same reason you thought Bates would be better than Saban.

That may be a little hard Blue, lets all remember what the team went thru last season...yet bates still got everything and more out of the players...we didn't have Ronnie Brown...or even Ricky....yet they played alot closer harder games than they have the last three....there was nothing wrong with Bates....that a healthy, complete team wouldn't have help. I don't see us light years ahead of anything...maybe in a few years....I only see us as we were after Jimmy took over...after the blood letting....lets hope Saban drafts as good as Jimmy did...plus one...a franchise type QB...and least lets start the right way!
 
NLude33 said:
1) With Bates, the team would've played hard, no doubt, but we would not be better off, and for sure would not have a winning record this season either. Bates defenses are so vanilla. Why do you think that we always took a December slide, and exited the playoffs. It was because the defense couldn't stop anyone in the 4th quarter, because we were playing the same defense that we did in preseason game 1. Plus, if the Green Bays D was that good, they wouldn't have only won 1 game.

2) Obviously Gus is no savior, and obviously he is not the future of this team. But I don't want to lose either. Gus, for the most part, has been making good decisions, and not taking sacks. His accuracy/timing with WR's are just really off right now. I don't know why, but he can't hit the broad side of a barn. I hope he gets better, and we can win the rest of our home games at least.

3) The team wanted Ricky back for 2 reasons. One, depth in case Ronnie doen't pick up the offense, is a bust, or gets hurt. Two, he has value. He is playing for the Vet minimum, and is really good for that price. Also, I don't agree that Ricky would've won us 6 more games last season. Maybe 1 or 2, but not 6.

4) I agree that Saban drafted well. I was a bit suprised when he started bringing in guys like Carter, Holliday and Traylor. They are past their primes, and are not part of the 3-5 year plan with this team. I think they were brought in to be more stop gaps for now, with their knowledge and coaching abilities utilized for the young D-lineman.

And the Dolphins are stopping teams now in the 4th quarter? Geez. We always had a top 10 defense....seems fans are forgetting all the injuries we had, last season.
 
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