Releasing Kyle Van Noy? | Page 24 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Releasing Kyle Van Noy?

I'll take $4 million in dead cap vs a $13M backup any day.

$4.1M is less than 1/3 of the $13M+ it would cost to keep him on the roster. They've cleared 9.8M in cap space by moving on. There's dead cap for one season.

They already got a return on that investment, time to move on.

There should be some bargains in FA this year with the reduced cap so it's a better year than most to go shopping. I'm not sure what the big deal is?
If he is a "back up" (which I disagree with) then he should have never been signed to this lucrative of a contract.

Ergo, bad decision by the front office.

$30M in guarantees for one season of KVNs services is not a sound return.
 
Any true rebuild is done on a 3 year plan. Not year to year. Is it good to constantly try self evaluate? 100%.

But folks flapping their gums around here acting like cutting KVN year 2 was the plan all along or that his play was sub par are kidding themselves.

PS, nobody gives a rip about the number of years in a contract. Its about guarantees. Which we front loaded on this deal and are cutting bait before yielding a return.
The cap for this upcoming season will likely be nearly $30M less than it would have been projected to be when the contract was signed.

Where we were in our rebuild last offseason it was obvious that we would overpay some FA's which we did. If there was no Covid and the cap kept climbing there's a solid chance KVN would still be a Dolphin.
 
The cap for this upcoming season will likely be nearly $30M less than it would have been projected to be when the contract was signed.

Where we were in our rebuild last offseason it was obvious that we would overpay some FA's which we did. If there was no Covid and the cap kept climbing there's a solid chance KVN would still be a Dolphin.
I agree about the cap and of course you're going to overspend in free agency if you're playing in the top tier. But the KVN deal was a loser to begin with.

People should not be applauding us for moving on they should be scratching their head at the initial investment.

But at this particular point in time. IMHO given the existing investment already made it would be more intelligent to retain his services for one more season.

We could find cap relief elsewhere that wouldn't yield dead cap.

And everyone is significantly undervaluing both his utility on the field but also his leadership off. Plus we are losing Fitz.

We won't have one single player who was over 28 returning from last season.

And now we are one injury away from not being able to set the edge.

If your saying Gink is your guy to replace KVN then e prepared to be disappointed when we face power running opponents.

We needed to be filling holes this off-season. Not cutting proven commodities we have already paid just to have to fill that need.
 
I agree about the cap and of course you're going to overspend in free agency if you're playing in the top tier. But the KVN deal was a loser to begin with.

People should not be applauding us for moving on they should be scratching their head at the initial investment.

But at this particular point in time. IMHO given the existing investment already made it would be more intelligent to retain his services for one more season.

We could find cap relief elsewhere that wouldn't yield dead cap.

And everyone is significantly undervaluing both his utility on the field but also his leadership off. Plus we are losing Fitz.

We won't have one single player who was over 28 returning from last season.

And now we are one injury away from not being able to set the edge.

If your saying Gink is your guy to replace KVN then e prepared to be disappointed when we face power running opponents.

We needed to be filling holes this off-season. Not cutting proven commodities we have already paid just to have to fill that need.
First of all, we had to spend a certain amount last year and KVN brought leadership and familiarity. Why are you so hung up on the dead cap? You don't think we can find a suitable replacement for less than 9.8M?

I think replacing KVN will be more by committee than one individual.
 
First of all, we had to spend a certain amount last year and KVN brought leadership and familiarity. Why are you so hung up on the dead cap? You don't think we can find a suitable replacement for less than 9.8M?

I think replacing KVN will be more by committee than one individual.
Lawson, Ogbah, Seiler... from a number of positions.
 
First of all, we had to spend a certain amount last year and KVN brought leadership and familiarity. Why are you so hung up on the dead cap? You don't think we can find a suitable replacement for less than 9.8M?

I think replacing KVN will be more by committee than one individual.
I think its just because of how this regime purged the roster. It was legit like the first time we got super clean on the finances. And I want to maintain that core value for the next few years because we need ample cap space to keep our own from both last year and this years classes.

I'm sure we can find a replacement and I understand the rational behind why they are doing it.

What we do with the cap relief will dictate how I end up feeling.

In do think we can replace the production. But Seiler and Ogba aren't standing up anytime soon. Honorable mention to maybe Beigel getting back in the mix. Him, Gink and Lawson. Feel a lot better about that group with KVN .....
 
I think its just because of how this regime purged the roster. It was legit like the first time we got super clean on the finances. And I want to maintain that core value for the next few years because we need ample cap space to keep our own from both last year and this years classes.

I'm sure we can find a replacement and I understand the rational behind why they are doing it.

What we do with the cap relief will dictate how I end up feeling.

In do think we can replace the production. But Seiler and Ogba aren't standing up anytime soon. Honorable mention to maybe Beigel getting back in the mix. Him, Gink and Lawson. Feel a lot better about that group with KVN .....
I hear you on the money, but we've agreed there was a need to spend last year and it paid off with a 10-6 record. I'm sure they'll add another guy through the draft and probably dip into the FA market again.

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-101-nfl-free-agents-of-2021-who-are-the-best-players-available

I'm still expecting more cuts to come.
 
Any true rebuild is done on a 3 year plan. Not year to year. Is it good to constantly try self evaluate? 100%.

But folks flapping their gums around here acting like cutting KVN year 2 was the plan all along or that his play was sub par are kidding themselves.

PS, nobody gives a rip about the number of years in a contract. Its about guarantees. Which we front loaded on this deal and are cutting bait before yielding a return.
Can you give me the ISDN for that book? I want to read more to learn how every rebuild is designed for exactly 2 years.

PS. I looked up in the stars tonight and didn’t see it up there either
 
I agree about the cap and of course you're going to overspend in free agency if you're playing in the top tier. But the KVN deal was a loser to begin with.

People should not be applauding us for moving on they should be scratching their head at the initial investment.

But at this particular point in time. IMHO given the existing investment already made it would be more intelligent to retain his services for one more season.

We could find cap relief elsewhere that wouldn't yield dead cap.

And everyone is significantly undervaluing both his utility on the field but also his leadership off. Plus we are losing Fitz.

We won't have one single player who was over 28 returning from last season.

And now we are one injury away from not being able to set the edge.

If your saying Gink is your guy to replace KVN then e prepared to be disappointed when we face power running opponents.

We needed to be filling holes this off-season. Not cutting proven commodities we have already paid just to have to fill that need.
For Pete sake, you’re talking like we’re the only team that took a flyer on a player and then didn’t like the results. Oh my starts and garters, we let a player go.

Also, let’s not talk about how much pans from last year might have been disrupted? COVID, the cap going down by a substantial amount, and our being in a very good place between cap and picks to take advantage of teams that aren’t.

if you’re surprised that the team is making adjustments to play the hand they have now Vs. the one they expected a year ago, I don’t know what to tell you.
 
This doesn't mean Grier and co are geniuses by cutting bait to get cheaper and "more athletic".

It means they lacked the necessary foresight and had unrealistic expectations for what KVN was bringing to the table.

I will say it a different way so you don't misunderstand.

You don't pay KVN $15M for one season of work and guarantee him $30M (and take dead cap) if the plan all along was to get cheaper and "more athletic" at the position in year 2.

He was not a prudent investment even though he gave them exactly what should have been expected of him (granted he battled injury).

I was against overpaying for him to begin with but at this exact moment IMHO it makes far more sense to retain him and squeeze the lemon on that investment (plus he is great for the locker room).

Clearly he is a casualty because of the expected reduction in team cap. But again, they did not sign him anticipating his release year 2.

Please stop applauding the front office for pissing cap away amid a crucial rebuild.

And now they botched any potential chance here of trading KVN when that probably would have been nearly impossible to begin with given the contract.

It's funny you see it as lacking foresight, I see at as having incredible foresight to sign to a contract that guarantees the best of both worlds. 1. Ability to keep the player if he performs to your standards of the contract. 2. Ability to cut the player after 1 season for a large net cap savings while creating little to no dead cap hits for multiple years. 4 million in dead cap vs. 9.8 million in savings (or 12.5 million if post June 1st.)

Honestly, it was a master class in how to sign a premier free agent to a a deal that makes them happy while protecting your teams cap future. KVN was a good player and great leader. Flores and Co. just sent a message that the better player is going to play on this team, not the higher paid one. If you underperform they will make decisions that are in the best interest of the overall team.


You say that "he gave them exactly what he should have been expected of him" which is ridiculous too. Almost as ridiculous as the "pissing cap away amid a crucial rebuild" line. Once again, a maximum of 4 million for 1 single year, against 9.8 (or12.5) A minimum net gain of approx. 5 million in cap space for this year. Next year he is completely off the books when the cap should rise significantly. Also gives us more cap to potentially carry over a bit to next year if we choose.

Lastly, KVN was never going to be a backup here with that pay and that language providing an easy cheap out. If you read things like this you start to realize why they came to the decision to cut him.

 
It's funny you see it as lacking foresight, I see at as having incredible foresight to sign to a contract that guarantees the best of both worlds. 1. Ability to keep the player if he performs to your standards of the contract. 2. Ability to cut the player after 1 season for a large net cap savings while creating little to no dead cap hits for multiple years. 4 million in dead cap vs. 9.8 million in savings (or 12.5 million if post June 1st.)

Honestly, it was a master class in how to sign a premier free agent to a a deal that makes them happy while protecting your teams cap future. KVN was a good player and great leader. Flores and Co. just sent a message that the better player is going to play on this team, not the higher paid one. If you underperform they will make decisions that are in the best interest of the overall team.


You say that "he gave them exactly what he should have been expected of him" which is ridiculous too. Almost as ridiculous as the "pissing cap away amid a crucial rebuild" line. Once again, a maximum of 4 million for 1 single year, against 9.8 (or12.5) A minimum net gain of approx. 5 million in cap space for this year. Next year he is completely off the books when the cap should rise significantly. Also gives us more cap to potentially carry over a bit to next year if we choose.

Lastly, KVN was never going to be a backup here with that pay and that language providing an easy cheap out. If you read things like this you start to realize why they came to the decision to cut him.


Quoting PFF rankings as the baseline for your argument completely invalidates your position.

A master class in signing KVN would have been to front load the deal even more with zero dead cap ramifications.

The fact $4.1M is dead shows this was not the plan.

PFF also doesn't score locker room chemistry.
 
That was an excellent contract in terms of flexibility. The plan probably wasn't to cut to KVN after one year, but the emergence of AVG made that a possibility. That's what most of the contracts signed last year did. They gave the team flexibility to move on when things don't go perfectly to plan. B/c reality is that things rarely follow some perfect plan. Some FAs bust or get injured (Jordan didn't workout and we moved on). Sometimes they play exactly as you expected (IMO KVN was what we saw in NE), but they get outplayed by another, cheaper guy. The team now has the flexibility to keep KVN for anther year (which probably was the plan) or reallocate the money to another area with only minor cap consequences this year. I like KVN and would have been fine having him back, but regardless I see that signing as a successful one for the team and for KVN.
 
Golly do some folks still have an agenda to attack our FO?

It's always negative and never positive.

Like that Tunsil trade -- that was a total loser!

Plus, I'm pretty sure, when KVN was signed no one was anticipating a pandemic + salary cap crash etc.

Effing Grier should have seen that COVID **** coming!

:rolleyes:
 
Quoting PFF rankings as the baseline for your argument completely invalidates your position.

A master class in signing KVN would have been to front load the deal even more with zero dead cap ramifications.

The fact $4.1M is dead shows this was not the plan.

PFF also doesn't score locker room chemistry.
"Quoting PFF rankings as the baseline for your argument completely invalidates your position."

Watching the game with my two eyes is my baseline. Scouting websites such as PFF and SIS data hub provide insight and help back up an already formed opinion. I've brought factual information to the conversation and looked at the money in a realistic manner. Don't like PFFs grades? Fine. How about being targeted 10 times in coverage, giving up 9 catches for a 90% completion rate? Maybe 13 broken tackles in 13 games starts to paint a better picture? He didn't perform at contract level. He wasn't bad, but he wasn't great.


"KVN was never going to be a backup here with that pay and that language providing an easy cheap out."
Yeah, sure that would have been a masterclass too, except you conveniently forget the player has to agree to the deal too. Pretty hard to beat 4 million in dead cap space in year 2 with no other cap ramifications for one of the top 8 defensive free agents from 2019.

"The fact $4.1M is dead shows this was not the plan."

No, it was just an option the FO wanted to have in their back pockets in case this exact scenario happened. Luckily they did and it cost the team very little and in the end will save more.

"PFF also doesn't score locker room chemistry."

The teams culture will dictate the chemistry here. Young guys like Wilkins will step into the voids. Don't sell Flores short.
 
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