s. mckinney and r. hadnot.

[Sal Lisitano]

why is our o-line so bad?

was s. mckinney at center and r. hadnot at guard that much better than what we have now?

i remember how everyone wanted to get rid of s. mckinney...i remember how everyone thought that he was useless...and how we wanted r. hadnot to play center.

well that just has not worked out at all.

what's the deal folks?

Go Fins!!!

 

[flintsilver7]

The 2004 line was a complete toss-up. Wade Smith and McIntosh played LT. James and McKinney were the only real starters. The other side was manned by the revolving doors (figuratively and literally) of Taylor Whitley, Rex Hadnot, Vernon Carey, and John St. Clair. The line had no time to get together and play well. The line eventually settled on was very similar to the 2005 line and they played together well even at the end of the 2004 season.

The line last year was:

Damion McIntosh, Jeno James, Seth McKinney, Rex Hadnot, and Vernon Carey.

This line performed very well and was among the best in the league. Damion McIntosh actually was among the best in the league in run blocking. McKinney and the guards were somewhere in the middle, and Carey was somewhere in the middle. The 2005 right tackle/right end numbers were somewhat skewed by the pathetic play of Stockar McDougle. They were also very good at pass protection - this is helped by having a quarterback who knows how and when to get rid of the ball. Frerotte may not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn with any regularity but he did not hold the ball too long.

So, in 2006, what does Saban do? For starters, he lets McIntosh and McKinney walk. Fortunately - very fortunately - they both come back. You might think that we would be able to keep the entire line the same as it was last year. This only helps, as offensive lines have been shown to play better the longer they play together. Five average guys who've been together for two years will generally play much better than five all-stars who've never played together. Saban brings in L.J. Shelton, an overpriced free agent who's never really done well anyway and casts McIntosh to the bench. McKinney gets injured, which is unfortunate, but instead of replacing the center he replaces the right guard and moves Hadnot to center. Now, Bennie Anderson was pathetic when he did play.

The moral of the story is we should've had four untouched positions on the offensive line, with the only position being changed (C) out of necessity (McKinney's injury). Instead, Saban made some pointless moves leading to only two untouched positions. The net result as we all have seen has been one giant leap backward.

 

[Sal Lisitano]

geez...i'm even more depressed now.

 

[jim1]

The 2004 line was a complete toss-up. Wade Smith and McIntosh played LT. James and McKinney were the only real starters. The other side was manned by the revolving doors (figuratively and literally) of Taylor Whitley, Rex Hadnot, Vernon Carey, and John St. Clair. The line had no time to get together and play well. The line eventually settled on was very similar to the 2005 line and they played together well even at the end of the 2004 season.

The line last year was:

Damion McIntosh, Jeno James, Seth McKinney, Rex Hadnot, and Vernon Carey.

This line performed very well and was among the best in the league. Damion McIntosh actually was among the best in the league in run blocking. McKinney and the guards were somewhere in the middle, and Carey was somewhere in the middle. The 2005 right tackle/right end numbers were somewhat skewed by the pathetic play of Stockar McDougle. They were also very good at pass protection - this is helped by having a quarterback who knows how and when to get rid of the ball. Frerotte may not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn with any regularity but he did not hold the ball too long.

So, in 2006, what does Saban do? For starters, he lets McIntosh and McKinney walk. Fortunately - very fortunately - they both come back. You might think that we would be able to keep the entire line the same as it was last year. This only helps, as offensive lines have been shown to play better the longer they play together. Five average guys who've been together for two years will generally play much better than five all-stars who've never played together. Saban brings in L.J. Shelton, an overpriced free agent who's never really done well anyway and casts McIntosh to the bench. McKinney gets injured, which is unfortunate, but instead of replacing the center he replaces the right guard and moves Hadnot to center. Now, Bennie Anderson was pathetic when he did play.

The moral of the story is we should've had four untouched positions on the offensive line, with the only position being changed (C) out of necessity (McKinney's injury). Instead, Saban made some pointless moves leading to only two untouched positions. The net result as we all have seen has been one giant leap backward.

Good post.

 

[Tigers2003]

The 2004 line was a complete toss-up. Wade Smith and McIntosh played LT. James and McKinney were the only real starters. The other side was manned by the revolving doors (figuratively and literally) of Taylor Whitley, Rex Hadnot, Vernon Carey, and John St. Clair. The line had no time to get together and play well. The line eventually settled on was very similar to the 2005 line and they played together well even at the end of the 2004 season.

The line last year was:

Damion McIntosh, Jeno James, Seth McKinney, Rex Hadnot, and Vernon Carey.

This line performed very well and was among the best in the league. Damion McIntosh actually was among the best in the league in run blocking. McKinney and the guards were somewhere in the middle, and Carey was somewhere in the middle. The 2005 right tackle/right end numbers were somewhat skewed by the pathetic play of Stockar McDougle. They were also very good at pass protection - this is helped by having a quarterback who knows how and when to get rid of the ball. Frerotte may not have been able to hit the broad side of a barn with any regularity but he did not hold the ball too long.

So, in 2006, what does Saban do? For starters, he lets McIntosh and McKinney walk. Fortunately - very fortunately - they both come back. You might think that we would be able to keep the entire line the same as it was last year. This only helps, as offensive lines have been shown to play better the longer they play together. Five average guys who've been together for two years will generally play much better than five all-stars who've never played together. Saban brings in L.J. Shelton, an overpriced free agent who's never really done well anyway and casts McIntosh to the bench. McKinney gets injured, which is unfortunate, but instead of replacing the center he replaces the right guard and moves Hadnot to center. Now, Bennie Anderson was pathetic when he did play.

The moral of the story is we should've had four untouched positions on the offensive line, with the only position being changed (C) out of necessity (McKinney's injury). Instead, Saban made some pointless moves leading to only two untouched positions. The net result as we all have seen has been one giant leap backward.

Very well thought out assessment of your feelings on why we are where we are with this OL unit. IMHO Saban was just trying to get better and honestly thought that moving Hadnot and bringing in Shelton and Anderson was going to improve this unit. Well - it hasn't. I think so far Shelton has proven to be very average and not an outright bust. But up to this point I am very disappointed in Hadnot's play. He played OK in the first couple of preseason games but of course that was only preseason. Yesterday the Texans were getting all sorts of penetration vs. Hadnot.

Agreed that the tinkering has backfired so far. I am disappointed in how this staff has handled the line. Of course injuries do not help. They are part of the game. That is why you have tier 2 and tier 3 players who need to step up. But no one seems to be able to.

 

[PSMITH]

Good question. I don't understand why we look worse than we did last year. Who did we lose? Didn't all of these lineman have another year to learn from the highly praised Hudson Houck?

Also, how do we make it better? Everyone talks about building through the draft, but O-line seems to be the biggest draft crap shoot of them all. Our line already has at least two first round picks that I know of. I can't think of any recent first round O-linemen who have met expectations. Not sure how D'Brick will turn out for the Jets, but I know Gallery is getting abused in Oakland. So should we trade picks for proven O-linemen? I don't like losing picks either, but at least you know what you are getting?

Besides the linemen, what else is the problem?

Dante is obviously not as mobile as he used to be, but that horse has been beat. He is still more mobile that say, Bledsoe, but he has been sacked 21 one times. Ridiculous.

Are the receivers not getting open, or not cutting the routes short when they read blitz?

Are the play calls really as horrible as they seem, or is it poor execution?

I would appreciate some intelligent opinions, not just bashing.

 

[Sal Lisitano]

i think its a combination of all that. we need to take some pressure off C-PEP but we can't run the ball. c. chambers started the season very slow last year as well...it looks like the same thing is happening this season. we can't get r. mcmichael involved in the passing game because he needs to stay in and protect the qb because our front 5 can't block well. r. brown for some reason can't break a big run. all these things put together and what do you get...an awful looking offense.

i just can't picture the Fins beating New England...no way. I just don't see it...not this team.

Go Fins!!!

 

[Cape Cod FinFan]

If any changes were made it should have been at center with Lecharles Bentley. The One thing I give credit to Wanstadt was going after Olin Kruetz.
It's said to see how poor this line is playing. Watching the bears game last night also proved, when the offensive line broke down for hasselback how pathetic that explosive offense looked. The one thing about the patriots that few people give credit to is the offensive line. Brady is good but that line it excellent.

 

[Sal Lisitano]

If any changes were made it should have been at center with Lecharles Bentley. The One thing I give credit to Wanstadt was going after Olin Kruetz.
It's said to see how poor this line is playing. Watching the bears game last night also proved, when the offensive line broke down for hasselback how pathetic that explosive offense looked. The one thing about the patriots that few people give credit to is the offensive line. Brady is good but that line it excellent.

absolutely correct. the game is won at the line of scrimage...that's a known fact. what's funny about the Pats is...they have no pro bowl o-lineman...they plug in players and they exectute and play very well. brady had all day to throw yesterday...and they ran the ball with ease on the bengals...yeah...i have a really bad feeling about next weeks game against the Pats...i really do...it won't be fun to watch if you're a FinsFan...geez i'm so upset with this team already.

 

[PhinsRock]

It all starts with OL play, and we have NO talent at OL. Houck has lost whatever credibility he once had as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ZOD]

This is really simple in my opinion....

Seth Mckinney was replaced because he could not get the line protection calls correct. He sabotaged every play pass protection scheme before it even got started. Hadnot was the better choice. The move was the correct choice.

How many times have you a defender come untouched this year? The defenders have a man on them. There are simply too many defenders coming from too many directions. That forces Mcmichael to stay in for protection. This also places the linemen in awkward athletic positions. They are not being beat mentally. They are being beat physically. It's not a problem that derives from physical capability. The blitz is usually being picked up. The ball has to go. There WAS a man open. There WAS a hot route. You don't have four seconds to get rid of the ball versus blitz.

All that opens up the next problem. The receivers and quarterback have no history together. They cannot look at each other and assume they both see the same thing in the secondary. Admittedly Chambers screwed up his route on the trick play. How many other plays is he screwing up? You have no idea. I have no idea.

Even when they are presented the opportunity to make the defense pay, they cannot do it. Take for instance the "run under it" bomb in the first quarter. Look at the Booker crossing route that hit him in both hands. You complete those and others like them and the response you get is the defense will back off. Defenses will not back off anytime soon. It's another year of facing crap shoot defenses that have not been seen on film.

So there are a multitude of problems. You tell me which play was the line, which play was the receiver, or which play was the quarterbacks fault. I have no idea. I would not presume to guess neither. I don't have a playbook. I don't have game film.

It's a mess. That's not a "deer in the headlights" look on Nick Saban as some have suggested. That is a man that is attempting to get players to make plays. Scrambling for answers and installing more only leads to more uncertainty in those players. Most often if you stick to the base, it eventually comes together. Have you ever attempted to teach someone something and then watch them fail miserably? That's the look on Saban's face. I promise you he would like to teach every one them personally. That's a coaches desire. He cannot teach ALL of them though. He has coaches for that. At least two of them are brand new to OUR system though (Capers and Mularkey).

My advice to all fans is to calm down. Just because some prognostication said we were suppose to be championship contenders doesn't make it so. All of these men have had some success somewhere. That success usually came in the form of longevity....

 

[Sal Lisitano]

This is really simple in my opinion....

Seth Mckinney was replaced because he could not get the line protection calls correct. He sabotaged every play pass protection scheme before it even got started. Hadnot was the better choice. The move was the correct choice.

How many times have you a defender come untouched this year? The defenders have a man on them. There are simply too many defenders coming from too many directions. That forces Mcmichael to stay in for protection. This also places the linemen in awkward athletic positions. They are not being beat mentally. They are being beat physically. It's not a problem that derives from physical capability. The blitz is usually being picked up. The ball has to go. There WAS a man open. There WAS a hot route. You don't have four seconds to get rid of the ball versus blitz.

All that opens up the next problem. The receivers and quarterback have no history together. They cannot look at each other and assume they both see the same thing in the secondary. Admittedly Chambers screwed up his route on the trick play. How many other plays is he screwing up? You have no idea. I have no idea.

Even when they are presented the opportunity to make the defense pay, they cannot do it. Take for instance the "run under it" bomb in the first quarter. Look at the Booker crossing route that hit him in both hands. You complete those and others like them and the response you get is the defense will back off. Defenses will not back off anytime soon. It's another year of facing crap shoot defenses that have not been seen on film.

So there are a multitude of problems. You tell me which play was the line, which play was the receiver, or which play was the quarterbacks fault. I have no idea. I would not presume to guess neither. I don't have a playbook. I don't have game film.

It's a mess. That's not a "deer in the headlights" look on Nick Saban as some have suggested. That is a man that is attempting to get players to make plays. Scrambling for answers and installing more only leads to more uncertainty in those players. Most often if you stick to the base, it eventually comes together. Have you ever attempted to teach someone something and then watch them fail miserably? That's the look on Saban's face. I promise you he would like to teach every one them personally. That's a coaches desire. He cannot teach ALL of them though. He has coaches for that. At least two of them are brand new to OUR system though (Capers and Mularkey).

My advice to all fans is to calm down. Just because some prognostication said we were suppose to be championship contenders doesn't make it so. All of these men have had some success somewhere. That success usually came in the form of longevity....

good post but...i can't calm down. i live in CT...in New England Country...i really thought that this team would give the Pats a run for their money...but now...that does not seem likely. the way this team has played...it looks like they have no chance to beat the Pats...zero chance.

oh and why can't we run block...this team and o-line is pretty bad. i think it may be already to late for this team...i will cheer for them no doubt but they look awful...how are they going to "correct" things? that's all saban has said...we can correct this...we will correct that...it can be corrected...well i don't see it at all...that's all he's talked about since week 1 but they have not corrected a damn thing...they look worse every Sunday.

i's starting to think that it's the personnel...the players that have flaws...so that's why things have not and will not be corrected.

 

[ZOD]

oh and why can't we run block...

There is a simple answer to that. It's the same answer to "What's wrong with the passing game?" It's called "blitz".

Football is a simple numbers game. I don't understand why more people don't see it. I think it's because we focus on schemes too much. The scheme is only a way to get an advantage in the numbers game.

This is the majority of the NFL. Count it off with me. My Offense has five linemen. Your Defense has four linemen. You already have a numbers advantage.

Otherwise you can send a fifth man. Now I have to keep six on the line (Mcmichael) or pick up the blitzer (5th man) with a back (Brown). YOU STILL HAVE A NUMBERS ADVANTAGE!!

The offense searches the entire game for that extra man. Where is he and what is he doing? The defense job is to hide that extra man. Too often he is coming on a blitz and we already struggle to block four with our five.

When the offense or QB finds that extra man we still are matched up "one on one". The defense still has the advantage in that they have a safety matched up on an immobile quarterback. But it's only when we are matched up when the "players make plays". That has not happened. We have continually caught the defense matched up. We have not made them pay for it.

Everyone is looking to blame someone and everyone has their favorite player. You will not find the blame. The entire offense is inept. I think the number one cause is that they do not trust each other. We could change the entire Miami Dolphins coaching staff and that will not change anything. Until the players make that change you will continue to see crap football.

 

[Tigers2003]

There is a simple answer to that. It's the same answer to "What's wrong with the passing game?" It's called "blitz".

Football is a simple numbers game. I don't understand why more people don't see it. I think it's because we focus on schemes too much. The scheme is only a way to get an advantage in the numbers game.

This is the majority of the NFL. Count it off with me. My Offense has five linemen. Your Defense has four linemen. You already have a numbers advantage.

Otherwise you can send a fifth man. Now I have to keep six on the line (Mcmichael) or pick up the blitzer (5th man) with a back (Brown). YOU STILL HAVE A NUMBERS ADVANTAGE!!

The offense searches the entire game for that extra man. Where is he and what is he doing? The defense job is to hide that extra man. Too often he is coming on a blitz and we already struggle to block four with our five.

When the offense or QB finds that extra man we still are matched up "one on one". The defense still has the advantage in that they have a safety matched up on an immobile quarterback. But it's only when we are matched up when the "players make plays". That has not happened. We have continually caught the defense matched up. We have not made them pay for it.

Everyone is looking to blame someone and everyone has their favorite player. You will not find the blame. The entire offense is inept. I think the number one cause is that they do not trust each other. We could change the entire Miami Dolphins coaching staff and that will not change anything. Until the players make that change you will continue to see crap football.

Interesting take on it as far as looking at the numbers game. The thought that the playmakers are not stepping and seizing the opportunity at the moment could be lack of focus due to distractions as well as lack of trust. That would be chemistry and people not on the same page.

Would you not want to be a fly on the wall and be able to find out what is being said in the locker room or in any players only meetings? Do the players trust and have faith in C-Pep's abilities as a QB and as a leader? God I hope so!! Any team that does not trust its qb is going to have trouble as long as that qb is taking snaps. Or is it that they don't trust the system or Mularkey's playcalling?