---- SI Team of Decade: Fins #17

[phinphan4life]

Let's get specific.

What's "overrated" to you?

I'd say our Defense in the early 2000s was probably 4-5-6 range.

I agree that saying they were 1-2-3 range would be "overrated".
Agree???

If not, what 6 Defenses were consistently, hands-down better than the Fins OVER A 5 YEAR PERIOD (1999-2004)????
Let's get specific here.

You're absolutely correct. We were in the 4-5-6 range during that time frame. If you look at our starting defensive roster back then it was rather imposing:

RCB: Sam Madison
LCB: Patrick Surtain
FS: Brock Marion
SS: Arturo Freeman
RDE: Adewale Ogunleye
DT: Tim Bowens
DT: Larry Chester
LDE: Jason Taylor
OLB: Derrick Rodgers
MLB: Zach Thomas
OLB: Junior Seau

Granted, some of those players were not there for that entire 5 year period, i.e., Seau, Freeman, Chester & Ogunleye. But that's still pretty damn impressive.

 

[nyjunc]

Just exactly how many pick sixes does a QB have to throw in order for an offense to be terrible? I still have nightmares about Fiedler and Feeley. As a poster stated previously your purported "honest" opinion is only based on statistics and a small sampling of Dolphins games you've seen. We know what we saw. I can't expect more than that from you because your a Jets fan. I wouldn't attempt to feign implicit knowledge of the Jets organization. I don't know why you do.

I do b/c I wacthed those teams play and I watched those D's always come up short. perfect example was our meeting on Dec. 13, 1998 at Miami. First place was on the line, your D was dominat all year at home. the only game you gave up more than 10 was against Indy and you were already up 27-0 on Indy so they were garbage time points. We score 14 in the first half to go into the LR w/ a 14-3 lead. your D was not a big time D.

Let's get specific.

What's "overrated" to you?

I'd say our Defense in the early 2000s was probably 4-5-6 range.

I agree that saying they were 1-2-3 range would be "overrated".
Agree???

If not, what 6 Defenses were consistently, hands-down better than the Fins OVER A 5 YEAR PERIOD (1999-2004)????
Let's get specific here.

It was not 4-5-6 range, #s wise it was a top 5 D but they never showed up when it mattered. When the games meant something they played like a bottom tier D that is why they were overrated.

I can give you 6 Ds better but things changed from year to year, in one year it may have been a certain 6 and another a different 6. I know from Sept through November I would have wanted a D like Miamis but dec and jan? You just couldn't win w/ a D like that.

 

[nyjunc]

statistically we were. anytime we couldn't run or fell behind in the 4th, you could bank on horrible results though.

A great D should keep your O in games, they couldn't do that. it's hard to come back and win, it's hard to win when your D gives up 24 pts in the first half or 1st qtr.

There you go, exactly. If those squads were down by 2 TDs it was a wrap!

The odds of winning for any team being down 2 TDs are slim espcially b/c even if your O scored your D would give up more points.

Up 30-7 to the Jets in the 4th qtr- was that the O's fault? you can blame them for getting conservative but shouldn't a 23 pt lead be safe in the 4th qtr?

a 24-13 lead late at NE in '02. Again you can blame the O all you want but why couldn't the D stop them? NE had to score a TD AND get the 2 pt conversion and kick a FG to send the game to OT.

In '03 the game that basically knocked you out of the playoffs at home against Philly. your O kept up w/ Philly but the D kept giving up points.

 

[nyjunc]

You're absolutely correct. We were in the 4-5-6 range during that time frame. If you look at our starting defensive roster back then it was rather imposing:

RCB: Sam Madison
LCB: Patrick Surtain
FS: Brock Marion
SS: Arturo Freeman
RDE: Adewale Ogunleye
DT: Tim Bowens
DT: Larry Chester
LDE: Jason Taylor
OLB: Derrick Rodgers
MLB: Zach Thomas
OLB: Junior Seau

Granted, some of those players were not there for that entire 5 year period, i.e., Seau, Freeman, Chester & Ogunleye. But that's still pretty damn impressive.

Nice names but most of those guys were a part of a D that gave up 31 to denver in the '98 div rd and 45 to Jax in the '99 div rd.

 

[Dredd1050]

I do b/c I wacthed those teams play and I watched those D's always come up short. perfect example was our meeting on Dec. 13, 1998 at Miami. First place was on the line, your D was dominat all year at home. the only game you gave up more than 10 was against Indy and you were already up 27-0 on Indy so they were garbage time points. We score 14 in the first half to go into the LR w/ a 14-3 lead. your D was not a big time D.



It was not 4-5-6 range, #s wise it was a top 5 D but they never showed up when it mattered. When the games meant something they played like a bottom tier D that is why they were overrated.

I can give you 6 Ds better but things changed from year to year, in one year it may have been a certain 6 and another a different 6. I know from Sept through November I would have wanted a D like Miamis but dec and jan? You just couldn't win w/ a D like that.

What your stating is all true. Miami lost those games, but the Ds were not overrated. The original point I wanted to make was that if the offense was better, if they were not a liability, One of these teams could've won a championship. The D was not overrated. Indy's D a few years ago could HARDLY be considered SB calibur, but they got the job done. I think a better offense would've helped Miami's D and overall team in those playoff games. Let's not forget coaching either. Even JJ had the wrong idea and Wanny continued the blueprint for failure.

 

[phinphan4life]

I do b/c I wacthed those teams play and I watched those D's always come up short. perfect example was our meeting on Dec. 13, 1998 at Miami. First place was on the line, your D was dominat all year at home. the only game you gave up more than 10 was against Indy and you were already up 27-0 on Indy so they were garbage time points. We score 14 in the first half to go into the LR w/ a 14-3 lead. your D was not a big time D.

You just helped me prove my point. Your only point of reference was the games that you saw. Mia vs Jets games are not a large enough sampling. Now mind you, we're not comparing that defense to the Steel Curtain, the 85 Bears or the Ravens circa 2000. We're only saying they were amongst the best for that 5 year stretch.

 

[nyjunc]

What your stating is all true. Miami lost those games, but the Ds were not overrated. The original point I wanted to make was that if the offense was better, if they were not a liability, One of these teams could've won a championship. The D was not overrated. Indy's D a few years ago could HARDLY be considered SB calibur, but they got the job done. I think a better offense would've helped Miami's D and overall team in those playoff games. Let's not forget coaching either. Even JJ had the wrong idea and Wanny continued the blueprint for failure.

I understand your point but please understand mine. A truly great D can at least keep their team in games but that D wasn't able to and even in cases where games were close or Miami had leads they managed to blow games late. The O shares blame for playoff losses but imagine the D actually stopping opponents and keeping their O in games? That's what Bal did in 2000, that's what a big time D does. Your D's were statistically big time but not clsoe to big time when it mattered.

I do b/c I wacthed those teams play and I watched those D's always come up short. perfect example was our meeting on Dec. 13, 1998 at Miami. First place was on the line, your D was dominat all year at home. the only game you gave up more than 10 was against Indy and you were already up 27-0 on Indy so they were garbage time points. We score 14 in the first half to go into the LR w/ a 14-3 lead. your D was not a big time D.

You just helped me prove my point. Your only point of reference was the games that you saw. Mia vs Jets games are not a large enough sampling. Now mind you, we're not comparing that defense to the Steel Curtain, the 85 Bears or the Ravens circa 2000. We're only saying they were amongst the best for that 5 year stretch.

That was an example not my only point of reference. I'll give mopre examples:

'97: 9-5 heading into final 2 games. Lose 41-0 at 3-13 Indy, down 34-0 at the half. Miami was only -1 in TO ratio, lost 2 fumbles while Indy lost one. This game cost them a chance to play for the div ttile the following week.

'98: div rd at Den. Game is 21-3 at the half.

'99: start 8-2 then lose 5 of last 6 to end season.

div rd at Jax. Down 24-0 in 1st qtr.

'00 week 17 w/ div on line. D gives up 24 to 5-11 NE, O needs tos core 10 4th qtr pts to win game and Div.

'01: WC game, Bal shows them how it's done. W./ Bal's inept O struggling to score they keep them in the game and Bal scores 20 unanswered points to win 20-3.

'02: Need to win one of last 2 games to clinch division. First up they travel to Minnesota to take on the 4-10 Vikings. The Miami O battles back to tie the game w/ 6 mins to play. What does the great Miami D do? allows an almost 6 min drive and the GW FG leaving the Mia O w/ :17 secs left.

The following week up 11 w/ 4:59 to play the great Miami D allows just over a 2 min drive which results in a TD AND 2 pt conversion to pull NE w/in 3. NE gets the ball back and kicks the tying FG to send it to OT. NE gets the ball in OT and proceeds to march into FG range and win the game costing the Dolphins the Division.

2003: needing a win vs. philly at home the great D gives up 34 pts in a 34-27 loss. The scoring went like this;

7-0 philly
7-7
14-7 philly
14-14
21-14 philly
24-14 philly
24-17 philly
24-24
31-24 philly
34-24 philly
34-27 philly

Your O kept battling back but you D couldn't stop philly.


Are these examples good enough for you?

 

[rrrrphin]

Junc - as a thirty year Dolphin fan I tend to agree with your assesment of our D. Statistically and on paper they appear very solid. They were never a very dominating defense and usually performed poorly in the clutch.
The last 15 years w they have been horrible at 3rd and 5+ to go. 3rd or 4th and short they have held up well...surprisingly since they have never been strong against the run.

I'm actually liking this year's D if the front 3/4 can hold up against the run.

 

[The Franchise]

San Diego is entirely too high, so are the Jets. Miami should be ranked above them.

 

[nyjunc]

San Diego is entirely too high, so are the Jets. Miami should be ranked above them.

Why is that?