Slimm's 2020 Defensive Ends (underclassman) | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Slimm's 2020 Defensive Ends (underclassman)

More and more, as we continue to win games, I am looking at Espenesa as a likely choice for us at 1a.

Chase Young is likely gone by the time that we draft, and well (I'm not a Tua guy) so I'm trying to figure out which player says 'value' to me. The DE (pass rusher) pool is shallow and if we wait til 1b, I believe that it'll be wiped out.

Pick 4 might be a bit high for Espenesa, but pick 7 or 8 would make him a fit.

I think the OLT pool goes deeper than the DEs, and the Centers will be there at 1b/1c. I think Espenesa might be where value and BPA meets 'need'.

Just a thought...
 
First, there are indications both Epenesa and Wirfs stay in school. So to me we have to see him give some indications that he's coming out before we start inking him to the spot.

Second, I think the OL is such a problem, particularly that left tackle spot, that we need to be focused on Andrew Thomas and Josh Jones. Man coverage is also so important in this defense, and Jeffry Okudah is so amazingly good, that we'd be fools not to have him on the shortest of short lists.

If you really look at how the Patriots have managed to produce pass rush over the years within the context of this defensive approach, I don't see how an Epenesa or even a Chase Young look necessary or ideal with that top pick when Miami can end up enjoying good results by taking a couple of mid-level defensive linemen like Shaq Lawson and Quinton Jefferson, perhaps Kyler Fackrell.
 
First, there are indications both Epenesa and Wirfs stay in school. So to me we have to see him give some indications that he's coming out before we start inking him to the spot.

Second, I think the OL is such a problem, particularly that left tackle spot, that we need to be focused on Andrew Thomas and Josh Jones. Man coverage is also so important in this defense, and Jeffry Okudah is so amazingly good, that we'd be fools not to have him on the shortest of short lists.

If you really look at how the Patriots have managed to produce pass rush over the years within the context of this defensive approach, I don't see how an Epenesa or even a Chase Young look necessary or ideal with that top pick when Miami can end up enjoying good results by taking a couple of mid-level defensive linemen like Shaq Lawson and Quinton Jefferson, perhaps Kyler Fackrell.

I’m not great w/ OL scouting but I took a look at Jones after seeing you point him out and wow. I imagine he is gonna fly up boards if he isn’t already. You were the first I had heard of him
 
Considering that Espenesa and Wirfs would both be 1st rounders, and considering what happened to Tua, I'm thinking that returning to play for free would be irrational and honestly... irresponsible to their loved ones.

That said, you may be right, but I'd almost be ashamed for them if they did.

As to the state of Miami's Tackles, I've been in complete agreement with you there... but I do think the pool of Tackles is deeper than the Edge pool. Indeed, I think it is deeper than the Edge pool almost every year.

But that's why doing this sort of analysis/debate is enjoyable... there are no absolute answers.
 
Tony Pauline tweeted about 6 - 8 weeks ago he was hearing Wirfs values education and may not declare. The news of Espenesa potentially not declaring is new. I wonder what's going on there?
 
The 'values education' answer sounds like a deflection, at best.

If a player leaves his U a year early for a contract that brings him tens of millions of dollars and provides his family with a lifetime of financial security, on which planet can he not return to school (and have the money to pay tuition) when his playing days are over?

Most of us get an education in order to improve our financial stability and give ourselves a better life. Maybe we can make 80K a year instead of 40K a year... For a first round draft choice, football IS his career.
 
I’m not great w/ OL scouting but I took a look at Jones after seeing you point him out and wow. I imagine he is gonna fly up boards if he isn’t already. You were the first I had heard of him

I wish I was first in on him but before I got onto him there was already buzz from Mel Kiper, and that buzz emanated straight out of the scouting community. The same buzz led Jim Nagy to invite him to the Senior Bowl, and to recently declare that he’s the top senior OT in the Senior Bowl.

NFL Scouts are professionals. They’re not always right and they can be wrongheaded sometimes in their adherence to the handbook. But they know what they’re doing.

For my part I heard someone talking about Mel Kiper suddenly and ridiculously ranking him high and I went to check him out to see what the fuss was about, figuring it was probably one of those flash in the pan rankings you see from Kiper sometimes that appear and then go away within a few weeks. But I was blown away, like you. The kid is legit. To move around the way he does at that size is unique. And he’s solid. Not a lightweight. Punches well, good Straight back, great posture and pad level. Plays with discipline yet also opportunistic about mauling people. You can also catch a glimmer of his competitiveness if you watch the right tapes. He’s a vocal leader, a team captain.
 
The 'values education' answer sounds like a deflection, at best.

If a player leaves his U a year early for a contract that brings him tens of millions of dollars and provides his family with a lifetime of financial security, on which planet can he not return to school (and have the money to pay tuition) when his playing days are over?

Most of us get an education in order to improve our financial stability and give ourselves a better life. Maybe we can make 80K a year instead of 40K a year... For a first round draft choice, football IS his career.

This has been my stance for a long, long time. It just doesn’t make any sense to stay in school, even for someone that really values education. Doing so would be an ‘uneducated’ decision.

As you say, a vast majority of these kids will make more $$$ during their short career in the NFL than anything they’ll do piggybacking that education. And to boot, they’ll have the resources available to them to complete 1 year of education as soon as their career is over or doesn’t work out.

Or, for the truly motivated, they can still finish school during their offseasons. IIRC, that’s exactly what Shaquille O’Neal did after leaving LSU a year early.
 
He didn't have a great Junior season, but UM's Jonathan Garvin has decided to hire an agent an will forgo his senior season and enter the draft. He did finish the season strong with 7 TFLs and 4 sacks in his last 4 games. Maybe he was playing injured early in the year because the second half of his season this year he looked more like the player he was last year.
 
He didn't have a great Junior season, but UM's Jonathan Garvin has decided to hire an agent an will forgo his senior season and enter the draft. He did finish the season strong with 7 TFLs and 4 sacks in his last 4 games. Maybe he was playing injured early in the year because the second half of his season this year he looked more like the player he was last year.

Garvin was a disappointment this season and outplayed by the redshirt freshman Gregory Rousseau. Granted, they had Garvin doing some strange things including dropping back into coverage occasionally. As you indicated he picked it up toward the end and especially the finale against Duke. Once his energy level noticeably soared in that game it was consensus on Canes forums that it meant Garvin would turn pro early, that he wanted to leave scouts with a positive impression in his final college game.

This has been somewhat of a tradition of late, for a defensive end to flash early in his Miami career and be touted on Canes boards as a first rounder, then flatten out and do next to nothing in later seasons. Joe Jackson was the example last year. Rousseau seems to have he most ability of the bunch. We'll see what happens with him.

Canes annually lead the country in fringe types who turn pro early anyway. Still a few more possibilities this year...Dee Jay Dallas, Jeff Thomas, and Navaughn Donaldson although I'm not sure any NFL team has a jersey large enough to accommodate his stomach.
 
Garvin was a disappointment this season and outplayed by the redshirt freshman Gregory Rousseau. Granted, they had Garvin doing some strange things including dropping back into coverage occasionally. As you indicated he picked it up toward the end and especially the finale against Duke. Once his energy level noticeably soared in that game it was consensus on Canes forums that it meant Garvin would turn pro early, that he wanted to leave scouts with a positive impression in his final college game.

This has been somewhat of a tradition of late, for a defensive end to flash early in his Miami career and be touted on Canes boards as a first rounder, then flatten out and do next to nothing in later seasons. Joe Jackson was the example last year. Rousseau seems to have he most ability of the bunch. We'll see what happens with him.

Canes annually lead the country in fringe types who turn pro early anyway. Still a few more possibilities this year...Dee Jay Dallas, Jeff Thomas, and Navaughn Donaldson although I'm not sure any NFL team has a jersey large enough to accommodate his stomach.


I agree on the DEs. Garvin was just typical. That said, many Cane fans now think he wont get drafted and I think that's just plain wrong. He looks like a mid-round pick to me with his physical tools and moderate production. Deejay is gone unless he gets projections that he won't be drafted at all. And he should be drafted. Just not early. I've heard the rumors on Jeff Thomas, but he would be nuts to leave. He was invisible for most of the year with numerous players on the roster passing him by. Given his production from past years, and the fact that he started the year hurt, I'd guess that he never shook off all the injuries. I don't think he goes pro, but he might transfer. Navaughn reminds me of the Washington kid from Miami Northwestern. Declared, went undrafted, and I think he played one preseason with the Steelers. If Donaldson is wise, he will stay and get his degree because he is gonna need it. The true freshman Jakai Clark easily outperformed him this year. With a quarter of the gut. Anyway I appreciate your insight here AWSI.
 
I agree on the DEs. Garvin was just typical. That said, many Cane fans now think he wont get drafted and I think that's just plain wrong. He looks like a mid-round pick to me with his physical tools and moderate production. Deejay is gone unless he gets projections that he won't be drafted at all. And he should be drafted. Just not early. I've heard the rumors on Jeff Thomas, but he would be nuts to leave. He was invisible for most of the year with numerous players on the roster passing him by. Given his production from past years, and the fact that he started the year hurt, I'd guess that he never shook off all the injuries. I don't think he goes pro, but he might transfer. Navaughn reminds me of the Washington kid from Miami Northwestern. Declared, went undrafted, and I think he played one preseason with the Steelers. If Donaldson is wise, he will stay and get his degree because he is gonna need it. The true freshman Jakai Clark easily outperformed him this year. With a quarter of the gut. Anyway I appreciate your insight here AWSI.

Thank you. I agree with everything you wrote. Round to round projection is more difficult for me these days but I definitely think Garvin will be taken perhaps 4th to 6th. Depends on he tests. That is always vital at defensive end.

I'll be shocked if Dee Jay Dallas doesn't turn pro. He is somewhat like Kenyan Drake that you can't get too carried away with him, or too down on him. Playmaking ability but not a full timer.

The problem with Dee Jay is he tends to get fat. He ruined his sophomore season by playing at a silly weight. This season he was nicely trimmed down at the opener and his effectiveness soared. But he slowly gained some of the weight back, to the point it was very noticeable in the FIU game, where he got hurt and lost for the season.

Jeff Thomas doesn't seem to care about classwork. He has had frequent off the field situations, although nothing disqualifying by itself. Talented guy. I'll be surprised if he doesn't turn pro. For some reason Thomas didn't have quite the burst this season. He also needs improved coaching. Too often he'll wait for the ball instead of drawing contact/penalty.

Donaldson has the largest natural frame of any Canes player in memory. He looks like Sponge Bob Square Pants in terms of square to square. I cannot believe he allowed himself to reach the blob level of this season, or that any college conditioning program would allow it. He is so fat even the most uninvolved fan notices immediately.

Beyond the fat there is some talent there. I could see him playing in the NFL if he drops 30 pounds. Even at this weight he had some decent moments, like the opener against Florida and also portions of the Pittsburgh game that I attended.

Yes, Jakai Clark is a nice athlete. Needs to get stronger. He was fine other than some short yardage plays in which he got pushed backward. But that was more true early season than later.
 
I know this is early but I'm very intrigued by Bryan Bresee, who just committed to Clemson. This kid has the potential to be the next true superstar Defensive Lineman. He completely dominated his level of play. I don't see him being an underwhelming or underachieving player at the college level either. His body type reminds me of Micheal Stahan and Reggie White. They both were a truly mass of a man; same with Bresee.
 
Epenesa really concerns me with his lack of athleticism on round 1. I almost feel like looking for a guy like Braun in 2 may be better value.
 
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