Slimm's 2020 Quarterbacks (seniors) | Page 13 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Slimm's 2020 Quarterbacks (seniors)

Awsi mentioned it and I thought it was a great angle on his part to mention it - the NFL doesn’t punish arm strength the way it used to. Offenses and defensive rules have changed too much. The guys who are punished are the ones that struggle to be decisive and don’t know where to go with the football.

That is one of the most significant changes in the game over the 50+ seasons I have followed. When it was a vertical game and defenses were actually allowed to participate it was simple for me to dismiss this guy or that guy, based on arm strength alone. For example, the Dolphins drafted Guy Benjamin as Bob Griese's potential successor. Forget about it. Lollipop arm. I called the sports talk programs on WIOD and WKAT multiple times apiece to rant about the absurdity of using a second round pick on a quarterback with no arm. Chris Myers recognized my voice and started laughing because he knew what the topic would be. Keep in mind it was actually the Dolphins' first selection that year since the first round pick was shipped to the 49ers in the Delvin Williams trade. We had anticipated the replacement quarterback choice for years and then come up with Guy Benjamin. Unbelievable. Of course, if the pick had worked out then maybe there's no David Woodley choice in 1980 or Dan Marino in 1983.

Nowadays I wouldn't be able to reject a Guy Benjamin so easily. Nor someone like Todd Marinovich, another lollipop. We used to laugh in the Coliseum when Marinovich was so petrified to throw a Hail Mary and verify his pathetic arm strength that he wandered around and intentionally allowed himself to be sacked. Best of all was one Hail Mary situation just before halftime and the opponent only rushed three. Marinovich was in panic mode. The three rushers were not threatening him at all. Not even trying to. Stalemated behind a wall of offensive linemen. My USC friends and I were in hysterics, knowing exactly what he was thinking. Finally Marinovich threw a dump off pass to his right. I still think that's one of the most memorable football plays I have ever seen in person. Both teams had players crowding the end zone, awaiting the jump ball from near midfield. Instead an unhurried quarterback throws a late swing pass 5 yards smack parallel to his right. The running back himself was in shock. He was taken down without incident.

Hey, the scheme worked. Somehow Marinovich became a first round pick. The off field stuff deflects from the simple reality that Marinovich's arm was not sufficient. His last NFL game was season finale against the Eagles. Very balanced outing since he completed 3 passes to Raiders and 3 to Eagles. A Philadlephia defender properly summarized afterwards, "Their quarterback was throwing ducks."

These days it is markedly more difficult for me to decipher that variable. I find myself stopping to remind...this is the current NFL, not what I grew up with. Matt Ryan is one great example in which I placed too much weight in arm strength. I think that was the first time I fully recognized the applicable gap from decades prior. Nope, his arm is not ideal. It accounted for lots of interceptions at Boston College. There have been numerous plays throughout his NFL career in which that variable has stood out, including very key plays in huge games. When the Falcons got wiped out by the Giants in a road playoff game early in Ryan's career, and the YPA was woefully low as the ball consistently arrived late, I was still trying to convince myself that the NFL would spit out Matt Ryan.

That was foolish. Overall Ryan's arm is perfectly sufficient. As Slimm described so well, the key combo now is decisiveness and decision making. I read ckparrothead's velocity stuff, which is interesting. I don't know enough about it. From subjectivity alone I am considerably less inclined to devalue a quarterback due to arm strength. It is just one more aspect that makes the quarterback position more problematic to decipher. I probably should spend more time on the easy ones, like Jake Fromm dropping in value. No matter how he fares in the NFL, nothing suggested an early first round premium prospect.
 
A lot of the folks here are just hateful; and I'm ashamed that they are even Dolphins fans.

Meanwhile you are using your sig to mock someone here. Laugh at them in every post. I don't know who wrote that segment but I can guarantee they are not devoting their sig to something so low class and unnecessary.

You can pick almost anything in the world to say in a sig, and you choose that type of theme. Not a great look.
 
Meanwhile you are using your sig to mock someone here. Laugh at them in every post. I don't know who wrote that segment but I can guarantee they are not devoting their sig to something so low class and unnecessary.

You can pick almost anything in the world to say in a sig, and you choose that type of theme. Not a great look.

Interesting theory...

Low class and unnecessary?

I'm pretty sure I don't agree that it descends to THAT level. Just a bit of a poke. Heck, I even removed their name to protect the guilty.

But... feel free to feel differently.
 
I don’t believe Joe Burrow’s arm is going to prevent him from accomplishing anything at the next level. His feel for the rush, ability to manipulate the pocket, and always being prepared to move and reset his feet are all too good.

I’ll choose these traits over a strong arm every single time.

Awsi mentioned it and I thought it was a great angle on his part to mention it - the NFL doesn’t punish arm strength the way it used to. Offenses and defensive rules have changed too much. The guys who are punished are the ones that struggle to be decisive and don’t know where to go with the football.

It's never been a matter of can't succeed. It's whether deck ends up stacked against the player.

Speaking from personal experience, my greatest overrates have consistently been the guys I relaxed the standard of arm strength because they had so much else going on for them, e.g. T.J. Yates. There are a few that go the other direction, big arms I overrated, but not nearly as many.

Joe Burrow has had the advantage of running the Saints offense, which is an offense already tailor-made for a guy with his velocity (Brees, the eld), with LSU's leading weapons and blockers, at high speed hurry-up (which is different from the Saints). As you've pointed out, he's got no course load to distract him, able to spend six days a week with Joe Brady studying film preparing like a professional, and he's got the physical and mental maturation of a 23 year old going up against 19 and 20 year old's.

He will go to an NFL where the windows are tighter, the relative speed of defensive players versus his pitch speed jumps up a notch, everyone prepares like he does, hurry-up doesn't work, and that speed/scrambling of his comes off la lot more Ryan Fitzpatrick than Russell Wilson. And that's without considering he will go to a bad team with a losing surrounding cast, questionable coaching skills, and an offense that may not be as tailor-made to his skill set as he found in Baton Rouge. He will have to perform right away, and he won't have the physical tools to lean on in order to get him through the struggles that all young players go through in acclimating to the NFL.

I agree that we are finding more and more that the NFL doesn't preclude low velocity players at the position from seeing some success. But I also typically find a bit of an accounting problem when it comes to the examples. For many years now, when Tom Brady has needed to reach for that velocity, it has been there, exactly the level you want. Jimmy Garoppolo shows velocity on the run that I've never seen from Burrow. The closest comparison is Drew Brees, and I've never seen Joe Burrow throw the sort of low-trajectory deep passes that I see Drew make, which are sort of peculiar to him relative to the velocity he gets on his other passes.

The examples on a throw for throw basis are few enough to give me pause and acknowledge that if Burrow can be like these guys 90% of the time, then by all means he could be just fine. But you also wonder if there's something less tangible about these QBs knowing that the strength is there for them if they need it, which may affect their decision-making, or perhaps their control. I've long taken the view that, while the measurable velocity on a throw can have a discrete physical consequence (e.g. defensive backs closing on the football), the measurable velocity on the throw also functions as more of a symptom of something intangible which is inter-sectional with other areas of a quarterback's game. And that's what would scare me. That's why it's a dice roll with Burrow.

That said, I do get the feeling that his actual throwing, from both mechanical and consistency standpoints, is professional. He's got a fully matured, professional stroke, and the confidence that the ball will get to exactly where he wants it to go. That alleviates some of my fears with regard to low velocity turning out to be symptomatic of something that bleeds into other areas. That brings it back down to the physical race between the football traveling at 45 mph and the closing defender traveling at 20 mph. I can deal with that. But I'm not taking it before Tua Tagovailoa or Jordan Love.
 
Justin Herbert is one of those quarterbacks that come along every now and then - that just makes somebody like me wonder what he's thinking about while he's on the field. Tannehill was that way for me coming out of Texas A&M. Despite requisite physical gifts, left me scratching my head more often than not.

Examples are simply understanding situations and what you need to do when faced with the ones that happen pretty regularly - like a bad snap that zooms over your head and you have to turn around and run like hell to gather the football before the defense does. Herbert gets lucky and the ball bounces perfectly up into his hands as he arrives, still with plenty of time to go through all of the options before the defenders close in on him. In a stroke of good fortune, he's managed to gather the ball on a dead run due to a perfect lucky bounce, turn around and scan the field for a receiver as he's running towards the sideline a good 8 yards behind the LOS.....

Rather than deciding to throw the ball away and save 8 yards as he's reaching the sidelines and the defenders have finally closed in on him, he just chooses to give himself up and slide as the defense touches him down. Loss of 8 yards that takes them out of field goal range.

Things like this will absolutely cost you football games even when you're playing well, much like Tannehill - causing everyone to not quite be able to put their finger on why the team tends to lose games they shouldn't when the quarterback is playing well.


Furthermore, Herbert tends to make some dreadful throws when throwing on the run. If his feet aren't set, he can't throw with any semblance of accuracy. The ball is going to skip on the ground 6 feet from the receiver. Things like these are where a Joe Burrow separates himself from Justin Herbert.
 
Jake Fromm has elite level situational awareness, IMO. But it doesn't matter as I'm pretty sure he's returning to UGA.
 
You're asking the right questions, for sure.

I don't think the fast ball is there, personally. Other guys, I'd accuse them of just not being comfortable with their fast ball (e.g. I think Will Grier's accuracy and spin break down when he really tries to rocket his passes, but he is capable of the velocity). With Joe Burrow, I don't think it's there at all.

Which might be OK because, as you say, Drew Brees rarely throws a fast ball. He's just insanely accurate and comfortable dropping the football perfectly into the soft parts of the coverage. Like you say, there are occasional throws where Brees shows more velocity than he does normally. Same with Tom Brady.
Yeah, Lou Holtz once said the biggest and fastest don't always win the race but that's how he's betting. Browning Nagle and Jim Druckenmiller had guns and did nothing in the NFL, but their strong arms were catnip to NFL scouts, who came running. Using a baseball example, what if Joe Burrow turns out to be a Greg Maddux type? No big fastball, but crafty as hell and effective. It's a more subtle evaluation, not the big arm staring you in the face, but talent and production come in different forms.
 
If ??? Burrow gets "exposed in the NFL it will certainly be the peashooter arm...

But I think he's got just enough velocity to be efficient in the right system.

And I do think he's highly system dependent -- tho I guess you can say that

about most QB prospects. If he had another 20% in the arm he'd be

a certified beast IMO.
 
Herbert is good enough. Just like Goff and Wentz are good enough. No need to nitpick. Good enough for us, good enough to be taken top 3. Each clears the benchmarks.
Jalen Hurts and Anthony Gordon also are good enough to go top 3. They are good enough. From there on it's about preferences --i like this and I like that and I don't like that. None of that should downgrade the players, they are good enough to go top 3 and start next season as the 4-year window guys.
 
I think the only pick, and I mean almost only pick that would piss me off in the first round would be Jake Fromm
 
I think the only pick, and I mean almost only pick that would piss me off in the first round would be Jake Fromm
Love in the first makes absolutely no sense either. If love is Flo's guy then I pray we wait until at least the 2nd.
 
Love in the first makes absolutely no sense either. If love is Flo's guy then I pray we wait until at least the 2nd.

jordan love makes sense in the first round and so does Jake Fromm. I just personally don’t care for Fromm and it would piss me off
 
jordan love makes sense in the first round and so does Jake Fromm. I just personally don’t care for Fromm and it would piss me off
I have love around 10th in this qb class. He doesn't make sense to me in first.
 
What’s the deal that I keep on hearing that J. Herbert may not “love” the game and buyer beware?
 
Last edited:
Sad to see the end of Mike Glass and his collegiate career end the way it did last night. He played a heck of a football game.

With his team down by 4 and trying to lead them on a game winning drive with less than a minute to play - a Pitt player says something to him and Glass punches him. Then another Pitt player comes over and gets in Mike's face along with the ref trying to separate the two - when Glass tries to swing at him also but instead hits the ref and knocks him to the ground. Gets tossed from the game.

Just an unfortunate situation. Lost his composure and cost his team a shot at a chance to pull out a win in a bowl game.
 
Back
Top Bottom