So... we kept Grier. Let's take a second look. | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

So... we kept Grier. Let's take a second look.

Virginia99 said:
It's not only the way Im rating him. Ignorant? WTF dude? I'm rating him for 6 years of mediocrity and 20 years of *** kissing and politics to keep his job in the worst era in Dolphin history! Stick that in you ........pipe.
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I’d agree he’s been hiding in the shadows for two decades and just finally is getting his shot. He flopped in 2020 big time, but again, as others pointed out Austin Jackson was a big need and he took a shot. Noah was 99% likely a Flo pick.

I’m judging his full body of work, not just a few draft picks. He’s been masterful with contacts, dumping cap space and orchestrating this rebuild.

He hasn’t been Ozzie Newsome, but he’s doing some good things, good enough to keep his job and finish this out. Let’s see what he does this off season before we oust him.
 
ForksPhin said:
I don’t mind your analysis. It’s pretty clear that we’ve drafted some good players over the past few years.

The only issue I have is that we can’t look at his picks in a vacuum. You’d also need to include players we didn’t draft who were available when it was our turn to make a selection. That paints an entirely different picture.
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I really don't think you can do that, because you can do that for any team.

You're not always going to get the player that ends up best because it's a crap shoot to some degree no matter how good you are and you need a coaching staff that puts players in the best position to succeed to get that as well.
 
After three years as GM, Grier has built an offense with approximately 4 NFL players. I understand that Flo bears a lot of blame, but Austin Jackson is terrible. Jesse Davis is terrible. Michael Deiter is just north of terrible. Liam Eichenberg looked terrible as a rookie. Myles Gaskin and Malcolm Brown and Salvon Ahmed are all terrible. Will Fuller was a terrible signing. Devante Parker is unreliable. The rest of our WR room, from Wilson to Williams to Ford, is terrible.

The offense has Tua, Waddle, Hunt, and Gesicki as potential keepers, and half the board thinks Tua is a bust and we should let Gesicki should walk.

We can evaluate individual moves all we want, but at the end of the day, when the sum of the parts leads to as much ineptitude as we had on offense, Grier has not done a good job.
 
Feverdream said:
The problem with that approach is that you can always do that... with any GM or any draft.

Were all 26 of the GMs who passed on Dan Marino stupid? Or all 20 of the GMs who passed on Randy Moss?

This approach assumes that 'everybody knew'... and that just aint so. If you have a GM who hits on most of his picks, then you've got a good one.
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Here’s the problem with Grier. He doesn’t have a long term vision on how to build a team. What are his core principles when it comes to building a team? It just seems so random. It’s another reason why he should have been fired with Flores. He hired Flores. They needed to be on the same page with what type of team they wanted to be and if it failed they should be let go together. Now he is going to have a say in who the next head coach is going to be, and he is going to have to adapt his principles once again to fit the new coach’s desires. It is too difficult to make the constant shifting of direction work. Ross should have fired Grier when he fired Flores, and hired a respected GM, and then let the new GM hire the new head coach who has the same vision and philosophy. These half measures that Ross keeps repeating have led to this dysfunction that never ends.
 
Kev7 said:
I’d agree he’s been hiding in the shadows for two decades and just finally is getting his shot. He flopped in 2020 big time, but again, as others pointed out Austin Jackson was a big need and he took a shot. Noah was 99% likely a Flo pick.

I’m judging his full body of work, not just a few draft picks. He’s been masterful with contacts, dumping cap space and orchestrating this rebuild.

He hasn’t been Ozzie Newsome, but he’s doing some good things, good enough to keep his job and finish this out. Let’s see what he does this off season before we oust him.
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If he hits the next draft as good as the last one I will gladly eat crow. He also has to hit at FA this year. It's one thing to be a cap genius, it's another to bring in smart, good FA players.
 
Feverdream said:
It has always seemed like a lot of the Grier criticism came down to a couple of things. Many Finheavenites were either a) Upset because he didn't draft specific players/positions that they, personally, wanted or b) They wanted the entire rookie squad to play like seasoned veterans right out of the box. So I decided to take another look at the previous three draft classes.

2019
Round 1 (13): DI Christian Wilkins, Clemson (Just had an excellent season. Top 4 in tackles. Increasing pass rush presence)
Round 3 (78): G Michael Deiter, Wisconsin (Mediocre starting Center)
Round 5 (151): LB Andrew Van Ginkel, Wisconsin (a flat steal)
Round 6 (202): OT Isaiah Prince, Ohio State (currently with the Bengals, and starting)
Round 7 (233): FB Chandler Cox, Auburn (out of the NFL)
Round 7 (234): RB Myles Gaskin, Washington (sometime starter, better 3rd down back)
UDFAs: Nik Needham, Patrick Laird, Jonathan Ledbetter, Chris Myarick, and Preston Williams (Needham starting nickel back, the others have played some)

In retrospect, this was not a bad draft at all. Wilkins has become one of the best DTs in the league, Dieter is a league average sort of player as a third rounder, and Van Ginkle and Needham have wildly outplayed their draft positions).

2020
  • Round 1, Pick No. 5: Tua Tagavailoa, QB, Alabama (Sure, I would have taken Herbert, but Tua hasn't been awful. This isn't a Haskins pick)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 18: Austin Jackson, OT, USC (Beginning to look like a questionable pick, although he did play better in '20 than '21)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 30: Noah Igbinoghene, CB, Auburn (not looking good)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 39: Robert Hunt, G, Louisiana-Lafayette (extremely solid pick)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 56: Raekwon Davis, DT, Alabama (was a star in '20, took a step back this year. Still looks solid)
  • Round 3, Pick No. 70: Brandon Jones, S, Texas (third safety so far, probably starts next year)
  • Round 4, Pick No. 111: Solomon Kindley, G, Georgia (not looking good)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 154: Jason Strowbridge, DE, North Carolina (currently a free agent)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 164: Curtis Weaver, OLB, Boise State (practice squad Browns)
  • Round 6, Pick No. 185: Blake Ferguson, LS, LSU (starting on special teams. Solid)
  • Round 7, Pick No. 246: Malcolm Perry, WR, Navy (practice squad Patriots)
  • UDFAs: Not much. Benito Jones and Kirk Merritt are still around, but neither looks like a future player.
This draft will always be defined by Tua. If he succeeds next year, this is a decent draft, despite the Igbinoghene reach. Jackson had a decent season, followed by a bad one, and it's unknown what a better Offensive Line coach will be able to get out of him. Hunt has been really good, and Jones and Davis have been solid. Some people bitched because of the Ferguson pick, but he's still with us and contributing-- unlike Strowbridge, Weaver, and Perry. This draft was one of those, hit, then miss drafts, but in the long run... it's ALL about the decision to draft Tua over Herbert.

2021

  • 6th Overall Selection (R1-P6): Jaylen Waddle, WR, Alabama
  • 18th Overall Selection (R1-P18): Jaelan Phillips, EDGE, Miami
  • 36th Overall Selection (R2-P4, from Houston): Jevon Holland, S, Oregon
  • 42nd Overall Selection (R2-P10, from N.Y. Giants): Liam Eichenberg, OT, Notre Dame
  • 81st Overall Selection (R3-P18): Hunter Long, TE, Boston College
  • 231st Overall Selection (R7-P3, from Houston): Larnel Coleman, OT, Massachusetts
  • 244th Overall Selection (R7-P16, from Washington): Gerrid Doaks, RB, Cincinnati
Whew... this one was a home run, just one of the best drafts that we've EVER had! The top three all look like future Pro Bowl players. Eichenberg was bounced all over the place and survived despite playing the only position that no draft tout thought he was suited for (LT). Next year, expect him to start on the right side, next to Hunt. The Long pick looks like a miss, but only because like Iggy in 2019, we didn't really need him. He may end up being a player, but we have not seen anything yet. Coleman went to IR after a decent camp and may replace Davis at swing tackle next year. Doaks must not have shown much... as bad as our rushing attack was, we never once thought about using him.

So... you and I may disagree over this or that player, but I really don't see how anyone can consider these three draft classes as an abject failure. Many of our best players came directly from Chris Grier's drafts. When you consider the rest of what he's done-- getting us so far under the cap and generally getting decent returns on his trades.... I just don't see where all of the anti-Grier sentiment comes from. Even the Free Agent signings have proven reasonably safe... only the Byron Jones signing was for longer than two years and the Ogbah signing has been a godsend. Stealing Seiler from the Ravens and then signing him to a below market contract was a gift. Butler, Riley... several others have provided valuable downs as back up players.

Why have we underwhelmed? The Offensive Line. ...and it may be argued that the problem here is that our coaching was really poor-- not really his fault.
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You might be forgetting something when you talk about the draft........if he only had the regular 7 picks and hit on all those players is one thing, but when you have 5 picks in the 1st two rounds in one draft and then you have another 4 picks in the first two rounds of the next draft then you should be able to do better.

As far as free agency, Ogbah was a great get....Jones costed a ton of money and I love Seiler but he was taken from the PS(mistake by the ravens)

As far as the cap, he's done a good job as far as clearing money but he has wasted a ton of it and players that have been here for one year and then they're gone.

Having said all that, he's still here and I'm hoping for the best.
Forgot to say, he also hired flores which was another mistake
 
Feverdream said:
It has always seemed like a lot of the Grier criticism came down to a couple of things. Many Finheavenites were either a) Upset because he didn't draft specific players/positions that they, personally, wanted or b) They wanted the entire rookie squad to play like seasoned veterans right out of the box. So I decided to take another look at the previous three draft classes.

2019
Round 1 (13): DI Christian Wilkins, Clemson (Just had an excellent season. Top 4 in tackles. Increasing pass rush presence)
Round 3 (78): G Michael Deiter, Wisconsin (Mediocre starting Center)
Round 5 (151): LB Andrew Van Ginkel, Wisconsin (a flat steal)
Round 6 (202): OT Isaiah Prince, Ohio State (currently with the Bengals, and starting)
Round 7 (233): FB Chandler Cox, Auburn (out of the NFL)
Round 7 (234): RB Myles Gaskin, Washington (sometime starter, better 3rd down back)
UDFAs: Nik Needham, Patrick Laird, Jonathan Ledbetter, Chris Myarick, and Preston Williams (Needham starting nickel back, the others have played some)

In retrospect, this was not a bad draft at all. Wilkins has become one of the best DTs in the league, Dieter is a league average sort of player as a third rounder, and Van Ginkle and Needham have wildly outplayed their draft positions).

2020
  • Round 1, Pick No. 5: Tua Tagavailoa, QB, Alabama (Sure, I would have taken Herbert, but Tua hasn't been awful. This isn't a Haskins pick)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 18: Austin Jackson, OT, USC (Beginning to look like a questionable pick, although he did play better in '20 than '21)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 30: Noah Igbinoghene, CB, Auburn (not looking good)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 39: Robert Hunt, G, Louisiana-Lafayette (extremely solid pick)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 56: Raekwon Davis, DT, Alabama (was a star in '20, took a step back this year. Still looks solid)
  • Round 3, Pick No. 70: Brandon Jones, S, Texas (third safety so far, probably starts next year)
  • Round 4, Pick No. 111: Solomon Kindley, G, Georgia (not looking good)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 154: Jason Strowbridge, DE, North Carolina (currently a free agent)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 164: Curtis Weaver, OLB, Boise State (practice squad Browns)
  • Round 6, Pick No. 185: Blake Ferguson, LS, LSU (starting on special teams. Solid)
  • Round 7, Pick No. 246: Malcolm Perry, WR, Navy (practice squad Patriots)
  • UDFAs: Not much. Benito Jones and Kirk Merritt are still around, but neither looks like a future player.
This draft will always be defined by Tua. If he succeeds next year, this is a decent draft, despite the Igbinoghene reach. Jackson had a decent season, followed by a bad one, and it's unknown what a better Offensive Line coach will be able to get out of him. Hunt has been really good, and Jones and Davis have been solid. Some people bitched because of the Ferguson pick, but he's still with us and contributing-- unlike Strowbridge, Weaver, and Perry. This draft was one of those, hit, then miss drafts, but in the long run... it's ALL about the decision to draft Tua over Herbert.

2021

  • 6th Overall Selection (R1-P6): Jaylen Waddle, WR, Alabama
  • 18th Overall Selection (R1-P18): Jaelan Phillips, EDGE, Miami
  • 36th Overall Selection (R2-P4, from Houston): Jevon Holland, S, Oregon
  • 42nd Overall Selection (R2-P10, from N.Y. Giants): Liam Eichenberg, OT, Notre Dame
  • 81st Overall Selection (R3-P18): Hunter Long, TE, Boston College
  • 231st Overall Selection (R7-P3, from Houston): Larnel Coleman, OT, Massachusetts
  • 244th Overall Selection (R7-P16, from Washington): Gerrid Doaks, RB, Cincinnati
Whew... this one was a home run, just one of the best drafts that we've EVER had! The top three all look like future Pro Bowl players. Eichenberg was bounced all over the place and survived despite playing the only position that no draft tout thought he was suited for (LT). Next year, expect him to start on the right side, next to Hunt. The Long pick looks like a miss, but only because like Iggy in 2019, we didn't really need him. He may end up being a player, but we have not seen anything yet. Coleman went to IR after a decent camp and may replace Davis at swing tackle next year. Doaks must not have shown much... as bad as our rushing attack was, we never once thought about using him.

So... you and I may disagree over this or that player, but I really don't see how anyone can consider these three draft classes as an abject failure. Many of our best players came directly from Chris Grier's drafts. When you consider the rest of what he's done-- getting us so far under the cap and generally getting decent returns on his trades.... I just don't see where all of the anti-Grier sentiment comes from. Even the Free Agent signings have proven reasonably safe... only the Byron Jones signing was for longer than two years and the Ogbah signing has been a godsend. Stealing Seiler from the Ravens and then signing him to a below market contract was a gift. Butler, Riley... several others have provided valuable downs as back up players.

Why have we underwhelmed? The Offensive Line. ...and it may be argued that the problem here is that our coaching was really poor-- not really his fault.
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Nothing personal, but no real conclusions can be drawn because no one knows who gets credit/blame. Let's take one example. Here is what we know as absolute truth . . .
Ross forced TT on Grier/Flo
Grier forced TT on Flo
Flo was adamant he wanted TT.
OK, so not all of them are true, but that's my point. Too many like to draw conclusions based, seemingly, on the article/quote that fits their opinion. Lets take Iggy and Jax. who is responsible? Who decided to go by potential unseen by other teams? I doubt it was the scouts, but that's just an opinion without evidence. Fans don't know who to blame.
FAs? I've ridiculed this a few times. Grier DOES NOT sign a FA and surprise the HC with the news.
IMHO, credit/blamed is shared between Grier/Flo/scouts and NO ONE knows the % of blame. There seems to be no one knocking Grier's overall ability at negotiations or cap.
 
Feverdream said:
It has always seemed like a lot of the Grier criticism came down to a couple of things. Many Finheavenites were either a) Upset because he didn't draft specific players/positions that they, personally, wanted or b) They wanted the entire rookie squad to play like seasoned veterans right out of the box. So I decided to take another look at the previous three draft classes.

2019
Round 1 (13): DI Christian Wilkins, Clemson (Just had an excellent season. Top 4 in tackles. Increasing pass rush presence)
Round 3 (78): G Michael Deiter, Wisconsin (Mediocre starting Center)
Round 5 (151): LB Andrew Van Ginkel, Wisconsin (a flat steal)
Round 6 (202): OT Isaiah Prince, Ohio State (currently with the Bengals, and starting)
Round 7 (233): FB Chandler Cox, Auburn (out of the NFL)
Round 7 (234): RB Myles Gaskin, Washington (sometime starter, better 3rd down back)
UDFAs: Nik Needham, Patrick Laird, Jonathan Ledbetter, Chris Myarick, and Preston Williams (Needham starting nickel back, the others have played some)

In retrospect, this was not a bad draft at all. Wilkins has become one of the best DTs in the league, Dieter is a league average sort of player as a third rounder, and Van Ginkle and Needham have wildly outplayed their draft positions).

2020
  • Round 1, Pick No. 5: Tua Tagavailoa, QB, Alabama (Sure, I would have taken Herbert, but Tua hasn't been awful. This isn't a Haskins pick)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 18: Austin Jackson, OT, USC (Beginning to look like a questionable pick, although he did play better in '20 than '21)
  • Round 1, Pick No. 30: Noah Igbinoghene, CB, Auburn (not looking good)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 39: Robert Hunt, G, Louisiana-Lafayette (extremely solid pick)
  • Round 2, Pick No. 56: Raekwon Davis, DT, Alabama (was a star in '20, took a step back this year. Still looks solid)
  • Round 3, Pick No. 70: Brandon Jones, S, Texas (third safety so far, probably starts next year)
  • Round 4, Pick No. 111: Solomon Kindley, G, Georgia (not looking good)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 154: Jason Strowbridge, DE, North Carolina (currently a free agent)
  • Round 5, Pick No. 164: Curtis Weaver, OLB, Boise State (practice squad Browns)
  • Round 6, Pick No. 185: Blake Ferguson, LS, LSU (starting on special teams. Solid)
  • Round 7, Pick No. 246: Malcolm Perry, WR, Navy (practice squad Patriots)
  • UDFAs: Not much. Benito Jones and Kirk Merritt are still around, but neither looks like a future player.
This draft will always be defined by Tua. If he succeeds next year, this is a decent draft, despite the Igbinoghene reach. Jackson had a decent season, followed by a bad one, and it's unknown what a better Offensive Line coach will be able to get out of him. Hunt has been really good, and Jones and Davis have been solid. Some people bitched because of the Ferguson pick, but he's still with us and contributing-- unlike Strowbridge, Weaver, and Perry. This draft was one of those, hit, then miss drafts, but in the long run... it's ALL about the decision to draft Tua over Herbert.

2021

  • 6th Overall Selection (R1-P6): Jaylen Waddle, WR, Alabama
  • 18th Overall Selection (R1-P18): Jaelan Phillips, EDGE, Miami
  • 36th Overall Selection (R2-P4, from Houston): Jevon Holland, S, Oregon
  • 42nd Overall Selection (R2-P10, from N.Y. Giants): Liam Eichenberg, OT, Notre Dame
  • 81st Overall Selection (R3-P18): Hunter Long, TE, Boston College
  • 231st Overall Selection (R7-P3, from Houston): Larnel Coleman, OT, Massachusetts
  • 244th Overall Selection (R7-P16, from Washington): Gerrid Doaks, RB, Cincinnati
Whew... this one was a home run, just one of the best drafts that we've EVER had! The top three all look like future Pro Bowl players. Eichenberg was bounced all over the place and survived despite playing the only position that no draft tout thought he was suited for (LT). Next year, expect him to start on the right side, next to Hunt. The Long pick looks like a miss, but only because like Iggy in 2019, we didn't really need him. He may end up being a player, but we have not seen anything yet. Coleman went to IR after a decent camp and may replace Davis at swing tackle next year. Doaks must not have shown much... as bad as our rushing attack was, we never once thought about using him.

So... you and I may disagree over this or that player, but I really don't see how anyone can consider these three draft classes as an abject failure. Many of our best players came directly from Chris Grier's drafts. When you consider the rest of what he's done-- getting us so far under the cap and generally getting decent returns on his trades.... I just don't see where all of the anti-Grier sentiment comes from. Even the Free Agent signings have proven reasonably safe... only the Byron Jones signing was for longer than two years and the Ogbah signing has been a godsend. Stealing Seiler from the Ravens and then signing him to a below market contract was a gift. Butler, Riley... several others have provided valuable downs as back up players.

Why have we underwhelmed? The Offensive Line. ...and it may be argued that the problem here is that our coaching was really poor-- not really his fault.
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You are way nicer to Grier than I am.

Draft picks only — and not from this years draft because it’s too early too judge. 17 draft choices for the years ‘19 and ‘20.

Wilkins - Good pick. He had a very good year.
Deiter - Still sucks. Waste of a pick. Yes he started this year at center….And was not good by any stretch of the imagination.
Van Ginko - Solid pick. Has some good games….and some not so good.
Prince and Cox - Wasted draft picks
Gaskin - Below average running back but serviceable. Should never be a starter. Decent 3rd down back.
Tua - Still don’t know what we have here because he has no talent except for Waddle and Gesicki surrounding him
Jackson - BUST. Period.
Noah - BUST. Period.
Hunt - Started out the year slow. Got better as the year progressed…But I wouldn’t say he’s a better than average guard right now.
Davis - I like the pick. I expect good things out of him.
Jones - Decent pick. Solid. Not a pro-bowl type…But solid.
Kindley - BUST…Currently one happy meal away from being cut. Disappointing.
Stowbridge and Weaver - Waste of draft capital
Ferguson - Decent long snapper. Average at his position.
Perry - Nothing there. Gone.

So of the 17 draft choices 7 are good/decent. None are Pro-bowl caliber. NONE. That’s not good at all. Did any of them make an all rookie team? Except for Wilkins and maybe R. Davis… Would you say there’s a Great starter in that group? Tua possibly…. But that’s it.

To sum it up from those 2 drafts….We got mostly average starters from the picks that actually play. Except for possibly Wilkins, Davis and Tua, none of those picks will ever make a pro-bowl.

I don’t call that good at all.
 
Whats interesting to me is how many OL got drafted or signed thru here that are starting for other teams yet our OL sucks. Gm needs someone who can better evaluate OL and keep good players and know who to start and play where. When hiring a new coach all we talk about is tua but emphasis needs to be understanding how to coach and evalute OL and putting them in right positions starting with griers scouts. Fix it all
 
This is just my opinion but i think Grier has drafted well. The problem in Miami isn't a talent problem, its a coaching problem. I can understand alot of you guys thinking Austin Jackson, Deiter and Eichenberg have all played poorly but how can these guys progress and get better with the worst Oline coach in the history of the NFL? We need an Oline coach who can fully maximize these players ability and make them solid additions. When you have a rookie LT, 2 2nd year players, and 3rd year players on the Oline and give these players a 1st year Oline coach, you're asking for trouble. Obviously not all Grier's decisions have all panned out but that's just the nature of the NFL...
 
I give Grier somewhat of a flyer on 2020 due to Covid restrictions not allowing for personal visits.

Would they have taken Herbert over Tua if he came for a visit and watched them both throw in person? Perhaps.

Austin Jackson was almost a gun to the head pick. Miami had to take a LT after trading Tunsil and top 4 were gone.

Iggy was a bit of a head scratcher. Perhaps if they brought him in and see how not ready he was, they go in a different direction.
 
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you guys realize that Grier might've been helped a lot by some of these guys he brought in to help him scout like McKenzie (Bears want to interview him for GM position) and I forgot the name of the other guy that was supposed to be real good at player evaluation...it might all be a mirage saying it's all Grier's doing...
 
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