Talent Vs Coaching

[Austin Tatious]

The talent debate is interesting. There are probably three elite level players for the future, a few good players, and some solid players sprinkled around.

But if you consider an analogy like treating each unit like a business sector, you would have mostly below average units/sectors. If you drill down to the next level and consider industries as analogous to sub-position groups, you might get some subgroups that are good. But, when you look at it this way, you can see the team lacks talent overall. The data confirms all this when you end up 31st or so on O and D.

Sector/Unit
quarterbacks - below average
running backs - average, maybe slightly above average
receiver - average
offensive line - below average
TE - considerably below average
defensive line - below average
linebacker - below average
defensive backfield - above average

If you want to drill down a level:

Industry/Sub-group
offensive tackles - well above average
interior offensive line - considerably below average
outside receiver - average
slot receiver - below average
defensive end - considerably below average
defensive tackle - slightly below average
inside linebacker - below average
outside linebacker - below average
corner - above average
safety - above average

There are some solid players throughout but not enough to have really good units. The team doesn't have any particular go-to strength that forms an identity.

I'd say overall, while there are three elite players (Tunsil, Howard, Fitzpatrick) and a number of solid players, it's not enough by a long shot.

 

[spiketex]

It's not a matter of talent vs coaching - they are not mutually exclusive. I state the obvious, but the truth is we need real improvement in both.
We need better talent and better coaching.

 

[Gonzo]

I have been thinking about a thread like this...wondering how much of our picks being "busts" is lack of talent/desire, and how much of it is coaching related, just not using the players properly.

I’d buy that if our busts went on to live up to their draft spots under other coaches, but they haven’t. Not every player is coachable. Ginn has become a good role-player, about what I’d expect out of a mid round pick. People keep bringing up Jordan as if he’s actually a badass in Seattle now, but he’s performing as I’d hope for from a late-rounder/UDFA.

Can Parker be coached to stop being such a *****? I wouldn’t bet on it. Can Tannehill be coached up? Wishful thinking. He is what he is and he always has been.

At least the drafting has gotten better recently. Actually have some real talent in Tunsil, Howard, and Fitz. They’re performing despite generally bad coaching.

 

[ANUFan]

Now let me expand as well, I do feel the team gambled on Tank/Lippett being a good CB and when that didn't happen we were stuck. I do think the pass rush was relying on bounce back year from Branch and Harris developing and neither happened. And I do feel that the approach to guards has always been iffy (now some of that is also on Gase but that's another story)

That being said as well, I don't think the staff took the right approach to helping mask those issues. Tanny ended up taking a lot of unnecessary hits as defenses exposed what our lines struggled at. Now were blocking adjustments or route adjustments made? Didn't seem like it, but again how much is that coaching and how much is the players/QB (again another debate). I also feel that Burke did not do a good job of helping to generate pressure through scheme and was too reliant on individual effort

Here's a simple question for you. Even with all the injuries do the Dolphins make the playoffs this season with a little more competent coaching on both sides of the ball?

 

[ANUFan]

The talent debate is interesting. There are probably three elite level players for the future, a few good players, and some solid players sprinkled around.

But if you consider an analogy like treating each unit like a business sector, you would have mostly below average units/sectors. If you drill down to the next level and consider industries as analogous to sub-position groups, you might get some subgroups that are good. But, when you look at it this way, you can see the team lacks talent overall. The data confirms all this when you end up 31st or so on O and D.

Sector/Unit
quarterbacks - below average
running backs - average, maybe slightly above average
receiver - average
offensive line - below average
TE - considerably below average
defensive line - below average
linebacker - below average
defensive backfield - above average

If you want to drill down a level:

Industry/Sub-group
offensive tackles - well above average
interior offensive line - considerably below average
outside receiver - average
slot receiver - below average
defensive end - considerably below average
defensive tackle - slightly below average
inside linebacker - below average
outside linebacker - below average
corner - above average
safety - above average

There are some solid players throughout but not enough to have really good units. The team doesn't have any particular go-to strength that forms an identity.

I'd say overall, while there are three elite players (Tunsil, Howard, Fitzpatrick) and a number of solid players, it's not enough by a long shot.

Disagree with you on a few spots.

The LB group this year is not below average(It's certainly average). As a matter of fact outside of R.Mcmillian( whom i don't like) name 2 other LBs in the ENTIRE league that generated more T/O than Kiko and Baker. Which should be pretty easy considering you think they're below average.

Prior to Albert Wilson getting hurt name 5 slot players in the league that were better. Once more should be easy considering your views.

 

[Austin Tatious]

Wilson wasn’t a slot. There is more to linebacker than turnovers, but they were good there. They struggled elsewhere though both against the run and in coverage.

You point out an interesting factor. You go 31st on O and D and still manage to win 7 games. Turnovers inflated the win total. Unit by unit, it’s probably a four or five win team, but you pull out the Miami miracle and a turnover or two and you inflate your win total.

 

[ANUFan]

Wilson wasn’t a slot. There is more to linebacker than turnovers, but they were good there. They struggled elsewhere though both against the run and in coverage.

You point out an interesting factor. You go 31st on O and D and still manage to win 7 games. Turnovers inflated the win total. Unit by unit, it’s probably a four or five win team, but you pull out the Miami miracle and a turnover or two and you inflate your win total.

Lol, Wilson was an outside?
There's more to LB than generating game-changing plays?
Turnovers, don't count?
Miracles in the game don't count?

Do me a favor Austin. Don't EVER respond to another one of my posts.

 

[Austin Tatious]

That's mature, Anu. But, do me a favor, ignore me if you are going to be such an emotional baby.

Regarding Wilson, let me help you.

https://phinphanatic.com/2018/07/30/dolphins-gase-says-albert-wilson-not-slot-receiver/

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article215757215.html

https://dolphinswire.usatoday.com/2...-adam-gase-says-albert-wilson-isnt-a-slot-wr/

I never said turnovers don't count by the way. But Baker can't hold up against the run. Alonso is bottom of the barrel against the pass. You don't get above average out of that.

If you had even a basic understanding of statistics, you'd realize you're hanging your hopes on outliers and you will revert to the mean. If you want to dream about miracle victories meaning that your talent is good, have at it. Except that it won't happen. That's why they are literally called "m-i-r-a-c-l-e-s."

 

[Mach2]

Wilson wasn’t a slot. There is more to linebacker than turnovers, but they were good there. They struggled elsewhere though both against the run and in coverage.

You point out an interesting factor. You go 31st on O and D and still manage to win 7 games. Turnovers inflated the win total. Unit by unit, it’s probably a four or five win team, but you pull out the Miami miracle and a turnover or two and you inflate your win total.

What you stated about our record being a mirage, is spot on.

I hope some of the failures of our LB unit falls directly on Burke, in addition to the fact that, do to injuries, they were playing behind a patchwork line.

RM was not very good at the beginning of the year, but showed improvement throughout the season.

Baker, I thought, showed very well for a rookie, day two pick.

 

[Mach2]

Lol, Wilson was an outside?
There's more to LB than generating game-changing plays?
Turnovers, don't count?
Miracles in the game don't count?

Do me a favor Austin. Don't EVER respond to another one of my posts.

Wilson wasn't in the slot a majority of the time. Amendola was the starter there, but I agree, our LBs were not horrible, considering Burke's incompetence, and the bad D-line play.

 

[ChambersWI]

Here's a simple question for you. Even with all the injuries do the Dolphins make the playoffs this season with a little more competent coaching on both sides of the ball?

Tough to answer. I think the team would have looked a lot more competent on offense with a few tweaks.

 

[ANUFan]

Tough to answer. I think the team would have looked a lot more competent on offense with a few tweaks.

Not tough at all! There we many times in the season when the team looked up prepared and their raw talent and the other teams ineptness(admittely) helped.

Here's the same question asked another way. How many times last season did you watch the team play and think, "Man this team was ready to play?" Based on the game plan and execution etc?

 

[ANUFan]

Wilson wasn't in the slot a majority of the time. Amendola was the starter there, but I agree, our LBs were not horrible, considering Burke's incompetence, and the bad D-line play.

Interesting, What position did he play when he generated his biggest playS of the season? I rest my case! Go back and watch the film. Hint it wasn't from the boundary positions.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

IMO it's ALWAYS about balance.

You gotta have horses to win and you gotta have the right plan for the race.

Bottom line, the league is pretty much dealing with the same or similar talent across the board

so it's critical how you (a) evaluate available talent relative to your "system" and

(b) adapt your "system" to the available talent...

If you can find a niche others ignore, or don't optimize the way you can -- then you're really ahead of the curve.

I can agree with that. That's the importance of coaching. Miami fans have seen good players come to Miami and look average and have seen Miami's below average players go to another team and have success. Not always, but all of us can name quite a few.

For every position in the NFL, probably 3-5 starters AREN'T NFL quality starters. There just aren't enough to fill 32 rosters. Top teams either make certain they aren't on THEIR team or coach them up or develop game plans to cover their weaknesses. That's where Miami has failed for 20 years - coaching. Of course, it's easier for a top team to sign the player they want than a 3-13 team with no hope of improvement.

You nailed it on evaluation, but we can NOT under-emphasize good coaching - the main reason Miami's OL has sucked for so long. Identifying players (that's where the talent comes in), coaching them up to their potential, and developing schemes to take advantage of the talent can make a 2-3 win difference in a season.

 

[Mach2]

Interesting, What position did he play when he generated his biggest playS of the season? I rest my case! Go back and watch the film. Hint it wasn't from the boundary positions.

What's with the combative attitude? I wasn't diminishing his value, or importance. Merely pointing out the position at which he primarily took snaps.