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TE Issue - Is it Talent or Coaching

BenchFiedler

BenchFiedler

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I was watching the 4th and 5th preseason games and I noticed a trend... None of our TE's can get any separation and their route running are mediocre at best.

Dustin Keller didn't have that issue but he was coached by the NY Jets TE coach.. How come the TE's we drafted are not improving are not developing fast enough as much as we would like? Is it a coaching issue?

Charles Clay was running routes that even a high school LB would defend easily

Egnew - Well Egnew is fast but still can't get any separation when covered by a LB not a safety

Dion Sims - That ball in the end zone on the final preseason game was not Devlin's fault and that should be a TD. Instead of stopping to give Devlin (on the run) an easy target, he kept on running which ended up being an incomplete pass.

I think coaching has a lot to do with that but I'm not an NFL TE coach and probably never will be but I got 2 eyes 20/20 vision to see the games on TV..

Omar Kelly wrote an article recently if the Dolphins staff were doing their part helping players address their deficiencies.. I think he has a good point.[h=2][/h]
 
It is puzzling.. Although I don't think they get enough targets. For example, say what you want about Egnew but Ive seen him get open(NFL OPEN) a few times and the ball never went his way.
 
I think with Egnew's physical tools you simply can't give up on him, so I understand the continued investment. Dion Sims looks like in time, he'll be an improvement over Fasano as a do-it-all tight end. Clay is decent, but he's never going to be able to create much seperation.

But yea, at this point it has to be coaching IMO. I mean if it was just Egnew, that would be on Ireland. But 3 draft picks on tight ends...something has to give.
 
If this is still a question in 17 weeks I think we can discuss it. Now, with only a few preseason games under Sims it's too soon to see what's up there. Egnew is probably his own worst enemy on that field- talent but I get the feeling he still thinks too much. Clay just ist a stud TE. Are they all at least serviceable - absolutely. Will our TE #s drop off- prob not.
 
And this kinda goes with the homerism journalism talked about a couple days ago. Any Cohen is talking Sims up as if he's been the saving grace since Keller went down.
 
It's always a combination of both.

One way to tell where it's at with both.

1. Are they using the right technique, if not, do they continue to use the wrong technique - then it's coaching [some may say it's the player, but if the player is allowed to continue with the wrong technique then it's coaching]

2. If they are not using the right technique at first but it does develop over time, but the player isn't able to perform - then it's talent

Take Egnew for example. And some have commented on this already. There is, some would say, a significant improvement in his blocking. I do believe Dan Campbell has had a lot to do with this and his off season programme. Blocking isn't something that can't be improved upon by getting stronger and tougher alone, it's helps yes, but technique is critical. This is why waist benders are not successful.. and Egnew has improved.

There is disparity in this O coaching staff with some inexperienced guys and some experienced, long in the tooth guys. I for one do have some questions about the coaching staff but it's about patience and letting them learn and develop, which unfortunately also involves experiencing some failure. The one thing I am looking forward to with this coaching staff is continuity and if they can stick together for a few years with the same core group of players - then and only then can you really evaluate the coaching staff - just like with players. It takes a while.
 
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I would like to see the staff give Egnew some of the same opportunities they give Clay. Give the kid some layups to develop his confidence. Mental toughness doesn't seem like his strong suit. But give him credit. He worked in the off season, built up some strength, and is a better in line blocker than Clay.

I would argue that Egnew is a better route runner than Clay too. The delta between the two right now is that Egnew has no production to speak of, while Clay has performed in real games. So give Egnew some layups and develop his confidence. It may pay off.. He is taller and may make a decent redzone target. Instead of layups we have Egnew running those tough fade routes in the end zone with high degree of difficulty with a novice quarterback in Devlin. Get him some check downs and get him going.

Tight end is as tough of a position as there is to master after quarterback. He may figure it out at least to some degree and at least contribute. He seems willing.

It's not like Clay is some real tough kid who runs great routes either. Clay lacks a lot.

I guess I would run a 3 headed monster and give all 3 guys a chance and some targets for a fair sample size and see how it washes out. We may be pleasantly surprised with Egnew as a contributor.
 
Austin Tatious said:
I would like to see the staff give Egnew some of the same opportunities they give Clay. Give the kid some layups to develop his confidence. Mental toughness doesn't seem like his strong suit. But give him credit. He worked in the off season, built up some strength, and is a better in line blocker than Clay.

I would argue that Egnew is a better route runner than Clay too. The delta between the two right now is that Egnew has no production to speak of, while Clay has performed in real games. So give Egnew some layups and develop his confidence. It may pay off.. He is taller and may make a decent redzone target. Instead of layups we have Egnew running those tough fade routes in the end zone with high degree of difficulty with a novice quarterback in Devlin. Get him some check downs and get him going.

Tight end is as tough of a position as there is to master after quarterback. He may figure it out at least to some degree and at least contribute. He seems willing.

It's not like Clay is some real tough kid who runs great routes either. Clay lacks a lot.

I guess I would run a 3 headed monster and give all 3 guys a chance and some targets for a fair sample size and see how it washes out. We may be pleasantly surprised with Egnew as a contributor.
Click to expand...

That fade route that he ran where Devlin missed him by alot, Tannehill makes that throw and considering Egnew made it to the NFL..pretty sure he makes that catch.

Pretty sure lol
 
BenchFiedler said:
I was watching the 4th and 5th preseason games and I noticed a trend... None of our TE's can get any separation and their route running are mediocre at best.

Dustin Keller didn't have that issue but he was coached by the NY Jets TE coach.. How come the TE's we drafted are not improving are not developing fast enough as much as we would like? Is it a coaching issue?

Charles Clay was running routes that even a high school LB would defend easily

Egnew - Well Egnew is fast but still can't get any separation when covered by a LB not a safety

Dion Sims - That ball in the end zone on the final preseason game was not Devlin's fault and that should be a TD. Instead of stopping to give Devlin (on the run) an easy target, he kept on running which ended up being an incomplete pass.

I think coaching has a lot to do with that but I'm not an NFL TE coach and probably never will be but I got 2 eyes 20/20 vision to see the games on TV..

Omar Kelly wrote an article recently if the Dolphins staff were doing their part helping players address their deficiencies.. I think he has a good point.[h=2][/h]
Click to expand...

You're entitled to your opinion but I feel that if we discuss this issue it would be helpful to frame it.

First, any talk about coaching should be framed within the last two years. One of the flaws (there were many) in Omar's article is that it slipped into the "this has been an ongoing problem" mode and cited examples that were in the Sparano era. Omar's articles wouldn't pass a decent high school composition class for logic.

Second, coaching has at least three parts: cultural, physical, and technique. This organization had to clean up the losing culture from before. They also have to take young players (Martin comes to mind) and work on their physical ability. This takes time. No amount of coaching technique would have helped Martin completely last year because he was just too weak. We see progress but this can take a few years. Finally, we get to the technique portion.

In the case of TE what have they done since last year? They let Fasano go because you can't "coach" speed. He would never be a seam threat. The team got, and then lost Keller to injury, our primary seam threat TE. We have continued to work with Clay but they clearly weren't convinced that he is coachable because they drafted Sims. Clay may never run good routes. Consider the years of coaching he has already had. Just because this staff can't teach him to run routes that doesn't make them bad coaches. He didn't learn to do it pre-NFL or from the previous staff either.

Egnew - too early to say pass or fail with him. Anyone who knew anything about him when we drafted him last year would have said he is a project and this is only the second year. It could be a fair argument that we shouldn't have drafted him that high as a project but he is what he is. I would say that if he is a consistent contributor next year (third year) then that would be good progress for a project. We will see.

We will see about Sims, too. I see a lot to like in him and I bet he's the primary contributor this year. Too early to tell for sure.

IMO, if we don't get a lot of contributions from the TE position from a 2nd year project, a rookie, and a guy that no one has been able to teach how to run routes this year then I wouldn't say it's a coaching issue. It's a timing issue for two players and a talent/coachability issue for Clay.
 
Clay's route running was so poor that the player has to be accountable. No way Dan Campbell didn't work with him on that. At some point you have to execute. I am seeing crisper routes from Egnew at this point but maybe it's just me.
 
my suggestion is to wait until you see a couple of real games. it was vanilla to me based on sims running to a hole and catching it....twice in a row. then caught another on a short square out.

I just tend to see this as preseason fodder. They have clay listed as a TE but he is not really a TE per se. and they know this....they just want the rest of the world to think this.

Just like they want the rest of the world to think Jordan has a shoulder problem.

---------- Post added at 01:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 AM ----------

and if jordan had a shoulder problem do you think he would be going downfield to smack someone on special teams? I think not...but its a free country.....still.
 
Sims shows nice hands and we know he will be a tough and physical blocker. I think he will be a really nice red zone target and he is going to blow some people up real good.

We need to complement him with a really agile seam buster though.
 
This is a position you have to invest big resources in IMO. Keller was the first attempt at that in a long while, his being a former first-round pick.

Contrast that with Clay, who was a sixth-rounder, Egnew who was a third, and Sims who was a fourth. There's a reason these players lasted that long in the draft.
 
BenchFiedler said:
I was watching the 4th and 5th preseason games and I noticed a trend... None of our TE's can get any separation and their route running are mediocre at best.

Dustin Keller didn't have that issue but he was coached by the NY Jets TE coach.. How come the TE's we drafted are not improving are not developing fast enough as much as we would like? Is it a coaching issue?

Charles Clay was running routes that even a high school LB would defend easily

Egnew - Well Egnew is fast but still can't get any separation when covered by a LB not a safety

Dion Sims - That ball in the end zone on the final preseason game was not Devlin's fault and that should be a TD. Instead of stopping to give Devlin (on the run) an easy target, he kept on running which ended up being an incomplete pass.

I think coaching has a lot to do with that but I'm not an NFL TE coach and probably never will be but I got 2 eyes 20/20 vision to see the games on TV..

Omar Kelly wrote an article recently if the Dolphins staff were doing their part helping players address their deficiencies.. I think he has a good point.
Click to expand...
Yes that was a rookie mistake on Sims part and he will learn and be better and get on the same page with Ryan as they play more together. I am sure it was brought to his attention by the coaching staff. I feel he will be the best option on for us going forward this year. The more coaching up the staff can do with Sims the better it will be for the team. I hope he develops into Ryan's go to guy when he gets into trouble.
 
It's mostly talent on this team...there isn't any high end talent at tight end...some of it is also system fit...it's not an easy system to play in
 
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