The biggest mistakes holding the Dolphins back from having their quarterback. | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The biggest mistakes holding the Dolphins back from having their quarterback.

It’s VERY rare to have a rookie starting QB that doesn’t have a lot to improve on after their 1st season. Call me crazy, but I’d like to see what Tua does with an improved WR corps, and after HIS FIRST full offseason, Training Camp, and Pre Season before entertaining the idea that he is not Miami’s QB of the future.

You're not crazy and too much is being made out of Tua's last game which was not a good one excuses, and there are many excuses aside.

1. Play calls seemed to all be screens, dump offs or dropped passes
2. A completely wasted first half and when Gailey was aware the game had started it was 14-6
3. When play calls improved in the second half they got a TD
4. Almost no separation against a pretty good secondary
5. Tua could have thrown a couple of passes more accurately. He looked way better in college when he had better receivers and a better OC but none of that matters because they're all excuses until his next good game.
 
Considering the number of GMs and head coaches we've had since 1999, it's highly unlikely that this stems from any sort of organizational culture. It's all about whoever is/was the offensive coordinator/head coach making play calls at the time.
I agree...I meant whomever is running the football organization, not so much the business personnel.
 
I am sorry.
Can you give me a cliffsnotes version?
Lol...sure. The Dolphins tend to coddle their potential franchise QB's, and they meddle with them too much. They also hesitate to let them truly sink or swim, and it makes finding or developing a QB very difficult. This is something that seems to stay the same across regimes for some reason.
 
I dunno, I think the bigger issue has been the Front offices failure to build a competent team and the owner/GM hiring poor coaches. We had Ireland who was good in Dallas at finding talent who became unhinged as a GM throwing money at players in FA like it was Madden and then his drafts were crap here. Then we had Philbin as a coach who threw his QB under the bus to save his own *** etc...

It's hard as is to find a QB, let alone a competent backup QB. Not like Miami has had the luxury of drafting a QB high and then being able to sign a good one in FA or draft another one high right away to compete.

QB is a high bust position. Especially when colleges eliminate the QB from actually reading a defense, play the spread and some teams win due to shear talent discrepancy. add in some QBs fall for the off the field distractions once they make it and stop training as hard.
Good points. I think part of our issue over the years has been a reluctance to spend high draft picks on QBs...it is the main reason we've missed out on so many great ones over the last 20 years.
 
Yes, I'm aware. My favorite college team is Alabama. I'm a huge Saban fan (even though he left us high and dry). There is an important distinction between what it takes to excel at the collegiate level, and what it takes at the NFL level. Tua had a good arm IN COLLEGE. He does not have a strong arm when compared to the pros. Also, the disparity of talent he had around him at Alabama is simply unattainable at the NFL level. Not only do we have a thing called the Salary Cap (a hard cap at that), but we also don't have a bunch of games against minor leagues...it would be the equivalent of playing XFL or AAF or CFL teams for half of the season. There's a reason that highly prolific and proficient college QB's most often wash out of the pros. It's simply on another level. That's what Coach Cowher meant when he said it seemed a bit too big for Tua out there yesterday...it's just not something he is used to.
I don't care what talking heads say so I'm not sure why you do. You're aware that he walked into a National Championship game and drilled a 40 yard game winner, yes? The whole "too big for Tua" is just straight BS.

What's annoying is that most of this forum doesn't actually know what a rookie QB, especially a rookie QB on a the worst talent collection in the NFL looks like. If your expectation of a rookie is to walk on the field and make everything look great all of a sudden with subpar parts, that's a problem with your expectations, not the rookie QB. I said this same bullshit when Tannehill was here. When every piece of your offense is pure garbage, stop expecting the QB to fix them. Hell, New England's garbage offensive talent had Tom Brady looking like he needed to retire to the point where the team didn't even want to spend a lot of money on him. He then went to TB to play like a top 5 QB and gave them the greatest passing season they've ever had and one of the best of his career because they had competent NFL talent on offense. We don't.

Aside from this, I agree with you that we need more competition in the QB room. That should ALWAYS be the case, but it's something we've skimped on for years, but that doesn't mean I want to set fire to a draft pick of like, Justin Fields.
 
Lol...sure. The Dolphins tend to coddle their potential franchise QB's, and they meddle with them too much. They also hesitate to let them truly sink or swim, and it makes finding or developing a QB very difficult. This is something that seems to stay the same across regimes for some reason.
Not to be argumentative. We don't have any franchise qb coming out of draft since Marino. Even RT, we did not see him as impact type franchise qb.
Tua is the first one since Marino.
Whether he live up to it or not is another story.
 
I didn't read through that whole thing...the first few sentences seem to blame all the issues on the QB themselves while you still say QBs that have left have done better (Only Tannehill actually falls in the category). What you fail to address, using Tannehill as my example, is that the talent around the QB has never been good enough. There's no surprise as to why Tannehill is doing much better with Tennessee. He has a better OL, an elite RB and a WR in AJ Brown and TE in Jonnu Smith that are more talented than anything he ever had here. The Dolphins have failed QBs that have been here repeatedly because they have failed to get talent around the QB position. Even Marino didn't have much to work with after Mark Duper and Mark Clayton aged out.
 
Not to be argumentative. We don't have any franchise qb coming out of draft since Marino. Even RT, we did not see him as impact type franchise qb.
Tua is the first one since Marino.
Whether he live up to it or not is another story.
We passed on Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan (and probably others)...we've had opportunities to draft QB's with potential many times...Tua is the first highly touted QB Miami actually took since Marino...so I hope it works out, but the main point is we need to understand that the first part of acquiring a potential franchise QB is to draft aggressively for one.
 
I didn't read through that whole thing...the first few sentences seem to blame all the issues on the QB themselves while you still say QBs that have left have done better (Only Tannehill actually falls in the category). What you fail to address, using Tannehill as my example, is that the talent around the QB has never been good enough. There's no surprise as to why Tannehill is doing much better with Tennessee. He has a better OL, an elite RB and a WR in AJ Brown and TE in Jonnu Smith that are more talented than anything he ever had here. The Dolphins have failed QBs that have been here repeatedly because they have failed to get talent around the QB position. Even Marino didn't have much to work with after Mark Duper and Mark Clayton aged out.
I don't care what talking heads say so I'm not sure why you do. You're aware that he walked into a National Championship game and drilled a 40 yard game winner, yes? The whole "too big for Tua" is just straight BS.

What's annoying is that most of this forum doesn't actually know what a rookie QB, especially a rookie QB on a the worst talent collection in the NFL looks like. If your expectation of a rookie is to walk on the field and make everything look great all of a sudden with subpar parts, that's a problem with your expectations, not the rookie QB. I said this same bullshit when Tannehill was here. When every piece of your offense is pure garbage, stop expecting the QB to fix them. Hell, New England's garbage offensive talent had Tom Brady looking like he needed to retire to the point where the team didn't even want to spend a lot of money on him. He then went to TB to play like a top 5 QB and gave them the greatest passing season they've ever had and one of the best of his career because they had competent NFL talent on offense. We don't.

Aside from this, I agree with you that we need more competition in the QB room. That should ALWAYS be the case, but it's something we've skimped on for years, but that doesn't mean I want to set fire to a draft pick of like, Justin Fields.
It's flawed logic to claim that someone who has a different perspective simply doesn't understand. While that can be the case, it is an oft overused and rarely relevant ad hominem tactic. Also, it's an over simplification (and a gross generalization) to claim that every time a dolphin QB you like fails it's because Miami has a pathological inability to possess any competent teammates for him to utilize. While success in the NFL is certainly predicated on talent at the skill positions on both sides of the ball, it is routinely true that brilliant QB play can elevate a sub par roster to playoff contention. Granted that is rarely from rookie QB's, and the examples of successful rookies like Brady and Roethlisberger are on brilliantly coached teams with excellent squads around them, it is still possible and even constructive to both recognize and acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of a rookie QB, as a fan or a front office executive.
 
It's flawed logic to claim that someone who has a different perspective simply doesn't understand. While that can be the case, it is an oft overused and rarely relevant ad hominem tactic. Also, it's an over simplification (and a gross generalization) to claim that every time a dolphin QB you like fails it's because Miami has a pathological inability to possess any competent teammates for him to utilize. While success in the NFL is certainly predicated on talent at the skill positions on both sides of the ball, it is routinely true that brilliant QB play can elevate a sub par roster to playoff contention. Granted that is rarely from rookie QB's, and the examples of successful rookies like Brady and Roethlisberger are on brilliantly coached teams with excellent squads around them, it is still possible and even constructive to both recognize and acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of a rookie QB, as a fan or a front office executive.
Care to explain why Brady and Roethlisberger's rookie seasons were considered "successful"? Roethlisberger wasn't exactly lighting it up and he was throwing to Hines Ward and Plaxico Burress and Brady was 1-3 for 6 yards his rookie season.
 
Miami has, it seems, worse luck when it comes to quarterbacks than any other team in modern times. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. When we pass on guys, (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, etc) they pop in a big way. When we draft guys (Henne, Tannehill, Tua?) they seem to struggle at best, and seem to improve after they leave. What could possibly be causing such unwaveringly poor choices and outcomes to continue to haunt our Dolphins?

Hmm, I wonder what could possibly be causing these outcomes... it couldn't have anything at all to do with the front office or the coaches, could it?

I have a few theories:

O rly?

1. As soon as we get a guy, we anoint him and immediately ENTITLE him to the job. In fact, we tend to eliminate any possible competition he might have from other QB's...in many cases trading or cutting other potential QB's on the roster to remove the possibility of competition.

There are a few instances of exceptions to this Dolphins doctrine, but it's fairly consistent and it always stunts the QB's growth as far as I am concerned. To a degree every team does this, but Miami does it like no one else.

I don't know where you got this idea. First of all, in the opening quote you lumped Henne's name in with Tannehill and Tua. One of these has nothing in common with the others, wasn't even a first round selection, and wasn't even starter quality in the NFL. Still yet, even if we keep ol' Henne in the conversation, he sure as hell had plenty of competition as he was relegated to holding the damn clipboard while Chad Pennington led us into the playoffs. We would go on to start Pennington the following season until he got knocked out and the Henne era began. Then let's talk about Ryan Tannehill. We deliberately signed a veteran QB who played for the Jaguars previously as HIS competition. The two battled it out through training camp before the old vet cashed in his guaranteed pay and skipped town on us...

Tua rode some pine this year too while watching Ryan Fitzpatrick start. So far, you're theory is FLAT WRONG... not looking good for OP.


2. In addition to entitlement to the position and a lack of challenges to their assumed positional supremacy, anointed Miami quarterbacks can also expect the second part of the equation...total apologism and coddling. Once Miami has it's precious new toy at the QB position, it seems we try very hard to make them look as good as we can, often even restricting what we allow them to do so they don't get exposed or look bad in games

...now again most teams try to slowly phase in a new quarterback and build up their confidence and experience, but the dolphins have an almost pathological aversion to any kind of negative reinforcement. It's like every pick, missed throw or drive killing sack is a catastrophic event that must be avoided at all costs.

Just call it what it is: a shitty organization. The Miami Dolphins are a shitty organization, have been a shitty organization, and are poised to continue to be a shitty organization if they don't draft at the skill positions. The coddling and restricting of what we allow the young QBs to do has been a combination of bad coaching and poor roster management. Ryan Tannehill wasn't given the power to audible because of micro-management by the coaches. It might have been that Tannehill needed time for the game to slow down for him, but those coaches weren't even setting him up to read the defenses and eventually take the reins. Then take into consideration the awful state of the offensive line and the lack of talent at the skill positions, and it's no wonder Joe Philbin never had a winning season.

In my opinion, hamstringing a young quarterback for fear of public ridicule is a terrible way to develop a strong minded winner who executes well under pressure...and restricting a weak quarterback to only what he can do well never forces him to adapt and grow his game.

It's foolish because you can destroy a potentially excellent quarterback's confidence and instincts, and you waste time trying to "develop" the guys that simply don't have what it takes because you never ask them to do things that are difficult enough to expose whether or not they have what it takes.

I'm a big proponent of a Baptism by fire approach. While it's not fair to ask someone to do things they haven't been adequately prepared to do (which oddly enough we sort of have done to Tua this season) it's inevitable that, once properly prepared, a quarterback can either effectively perform the task at hand, or he cannot...no amount of careful avoidance, or attempted circumvention, will change that.

The best approach is to assess how much command of the offense and plays are necessary for a QB to be successful, then put him in and get out of his way once you've coached him to that point.


Miami meddles and coddles too much. It's almost impossible for us to develop a QB to the right combination of confidence and prudence, of intellect and instinct. It's a delicate balancing act, and Miami keeps putting their thumbs on the scale, trying to tip the outcome in our favor.

With all of this in mind, I think we should try a new approach with Tua. I like how Flores threw him out there and told him to sink or swim (and it's certainly better than the coddling most other QB's get with us) but I feel we should at least give him the optimum conditions to be successful ON HIS OWN TERMS if we are to judge accurately if he is our long term answer.

I'm comfortable with his physical weaknesses (below average arm strength, slow lateral movement, poor pocket presence, conservative throwing tendencies) because many quarterbacks have won or been in Super Bowls with roughly the same capabilities as Tua...Jimmy G and Jared Goff are prime recent examples. They both have most of the same weaknesses as Tua, and they both have looked excellent (at times almost elite) in stretches.

My point is let's unify as a fan base and let Tua be our group project...really give him the best chance to be his best self. If he gets there and it isn't enough, we can always move on...but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wish Tua was 6'6 with a 90 yard cannon and a sub 4.2 40 time...but that's just not him...so let's stop obsessing over what he ISN'T and try to get the most out of what he IS or CAN BE. Make no mistake about it.

Most likely, Flores and Grier (and many of the players they have brought in) are inextricably attached to the success of Tua. The last thing we should do is roll the dice on ANOTHER QB that is bound to have flaws (some maybe less manageable) and maybe wind up right back where we started again in a year or two. Let's try to get this one right for a change.

I agree with most of the rest of your points, OP. What you see on display from Flores and Gailey is their best effort to manage a contender out of this squad. It is interesting to me that they saw the best potential in accomplishing that by coaching Tua to be a good game manager QB. We got to see them turn things loose against the Bills when Tua had to open it up full throttle and there was no Fitzpatrick to try and bail the thing out, and what we got is what I would expect from doing this: 1 TD, 3 INT. IMO, the whole season should have looked a lot like that. It's what you expect when you give the young QB your blessing to go to town with it, ride that buffalo, and hopefully by season's end have that beast under control.

The best way to do that is to draft complementary pieces around him if possible, and if not then sign a running back and a WR. I absolutely loved the way that Seattle and Dallas broke in their new QBs several years ago. Russell Wilson had Beast Mode and just a bunch of wide receivers he could air it out to. Prescott had Ezekiel Elliot and quality receivers.

Here's hoping that we can draft some serious complementary pieces to go with Tua, because success and superbowls are tied directly to how coaches assemble their offenses accordingly with their QB selection. I said it once, and it bears repeating that, if they drafted Tua without being 100% sold on the player then they are 99% likely to get canned for it.
 
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